Episode 06: The Power of Connections at Conferences with Herman Steuernagel

Angela Haas (00:01.199)
Hello everyone. Welcome to episode six. I said that with a lot of suspense because we have an amazing guest. I'm Angela Haas and I'm here with my lovely co-host, Cassie Newell. And this month we're talking all about networking, building your community. And this episode we're talking with Herman Steuernagel about

Kind of our conference tips and conferences survival guide. Herman Steuernagel is a science fiction and fantasy author exploring worlds of infinite possibilities. His recent release, The Bartender Between Worlds, excellent, by the way, not biased, I read it, I loved it, briefly touched the Barnes and Noble Top 100.

With inspirations ranging from Star Trek The Next Generation to The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks and The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan, Herman grew up with the love of story and tales of the fantastical. Herman currently lives in British Columbia, Canada. When he's not working on a new book, he can be found cycling, running and dreaming up new worlds. Welcome Herman.

Herman Steuernagel (01:21.518)
Thank you so much and thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Cassie Newell (01:26.267)
So exciting to have you here.

Angela Haas (01:27.607)
We're so excited. So tell us a little bit about your conference trajectory. You've been doing, since I've started, since I've known you, you've been doing more and more in-person events. But is it safe to say you're a little more introverted than me, the level 10 extrovert?

So talk about like, you know, your in-person event schedule every year. How many do you plan on it? How many do you do? just like, tell us a little bit about your conference schedule.

Herman Steuernagel (01:54.612)
very safe to say.

Herman Steuernagel (02:07.126)
Yeah, so I've actually been doing conferences for quite a while, even before I became an author. It's even before I started, well, before I started publishing, I should say. But even before that, I was doing SEO conferences and that sort of thing, kind of for the day job I ran a company before. Yes, I'm definitely more introverted than you, Angela, and Cassie as well. But

Angela Haas (02:27.771)
you

Cassie Newell (02:32.433)
I'm an ambivert. We've got it fully represented.

Angela Haas (02:36.013)
The spectrum. Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (02:36.982)
Right, right, wonderful, wonderful. yeah, so I have done, I've gone to Author Nation, which used to be 20 books to 50k, four times now.

Angela Haas (02:41.403)
Thank

Angela Haas (02:46.299)
Mm-hmm.

Herman Steuernagel (02:48.558)
and I've gone to some local events, local Comic Cons and that sort of thing, more as a seller than as a participant in those. Otherwise, I haven't done a full schedule of conferences, but I try to do one big one a year. So this year I'm hoping to go to WorldCon in Seattle, because that one's fairly close to me. We'll see if I can make it to Vegas again this year, but I try to do a few every year.

Angela Haas (03:14.363)
And what's the difference, do you think, with, I mean, we know the difference between a conference and a con, like a con, but it's a little bit different mindset when you're in two different events, you know, like that, so.

Herman Steuernagel (03:29.814)
It is.

Yeah, like a yeah, conference, you know, like when you're going as a participant in a conference, you're going to learn, you're going to meet fellow authors, you're going to kind of learn about writing. Whereas a con, I mean, there's, there are some bigger cons that have writing components and you go to learn as well. But I've gone mostly as a vendor. So I'm going there to, you know, there's still a lot of talking to people that happens at those events, because you're sitting behind a table and trying to sell your books, right. So it's a different type of talking, you're not trying to network and meet

Angela Haas (03:58.223)
Mm-hmm.

Herman Steuernagel (04:01.742)
people necessarily for your author career, but you're definitely there talking to people for a purpose because you don't want to just sit there quietly because no one will ever buy your book from you if you do. Yeah.

Angela Haas (04:12.557)
Right, yeah. So what are some tips for other more introverted writers that, you know, how do they put themselves out there and even just decide to go to one of these events?

Herman Steuernagel (04:29.602)
Yeah, I mean, that's a huge question, and there's such a large array of answers and different things we can get into there. I think to start, I think the biggest thing for anyone looking to go to a conference if they're an introvert is really to understand your motivation for going to a conference. There's a lot of different reasons you can go to a conference, and I think you need to start out, you know, before you get there, before you even book it, understanding why...

Angela Haas (04:32.056)
Yes.

Herman Steuernagel (04:57.454)
you want to go in the first place. Obviously there's something you're hoping to get out from it, whether it's learning, whether it's meeting other authors, whether it's just taking a break. And that's going to really determine how you approach the event when you're going into it. So that's my first tip. Because I think if your goal is to further your author career, you kind of want to go in with an understanding of how. Are you going?

to meet other authors because you're looking for someone that can help you promote? Are you looking for an author community where you can have other authors that you can talk to? Are you going just for the sessions and you're really just showing up to like put your butt in the seat and listen? Because those are all gonna, it's all gonna vary how you approach going to the event.

Angela Haas (05:48.187)
Why do you go to events?

Herman Steuernagel (05:49.004)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (05:57.745)
It's interesting, I was listening to Herman talk about basically preparation and I was writing that down. was like, preparation and value. You really have to think about the value for yourself because these things aren't inexpensive either. You are adding money in support of your career and that's my reason why.

Angela Haas (06:04.705)
Ha ha ha.

Angela Haas (06:11.652)
Right.

Yeah.

Cassie Newell (06:24.495)
It's always been about the networking components. think early on in my career, was education. Now it's more networking. Sometimes it's the newest brand new thing in the industry I'm interested in, but usually that's an after effect once I see the agenda. Most of the time it's knowing who's going, who the keynotes are, things of that nature.

Angela Haas (06:41.103)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (06:48.229)
getting to meet fellow community members that I don't normally see on the regular, because we don't live in the same states most of the time, or even countries, like Herman. So it's nice to be able to connect to and then meet other potential individuals that are in your same lane that you can learn from. So those have always been my whys.

Herman Steuernagel (06:58.734)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (07:17.829)
I'm just curious too, when you talk about career growth, because Herman, your career has definitely grown. What are some of your whys now? Have they changed since you started going as well? Or how has that worked for you?

Herman Steuernagel (07:36.172)
Yeah, you know, it's definitely changed. think the first conference, like you were saying for yourself as well, Cassie, the first conference I went to, I went to for learning. I had, when I signed up, my first book, had it come out yet already? I think I only had one book out, believe. And I wanted to learn more about the publishing industry, self-publishing.

What I really took away from that first conference though, and that was the 20 Books Conference was my first one, was getting to know other authors, was meeting other people. And, you know, kind of what I realized since then is...

I can do the learning at home. The learning isn't the reason why I'm flying to another city and booking a hotel and spending five days away from my wife. you know, I can watch a YouTube video at home if I really want to learn, because the information's out there. But what, you know, what isn't out there is...

Angela Haas (08:23.099)
All right.

Herman Steuernagel (08:38.754)
this way of connecting with other people, sitting down in a room of hundreds, if not thousands of other authors that you can connect and learn from in ways that aren't necessarily as accessible as they are online. I mean, you can still have your author chats and your author groups and communities and discords and Slack groups and all those sort of things. And those are great. But.

you know, my goal now in going to a conference is to connect with other like-minded authors to learn from what they're doing and to really grow my network and you know, help, you know, we can help each other out in that way because the, you know, the sessions themselves, while they're, they're good and I'm not like,

not to say anything bad about them, but they're not the reason why I'm going to spend the time and the money to go to the conferences now. It's really about growing as an author. And you do that by connecting with people who have a different perspective of how they're publishing, how they're marketing, or anything like that, and really expanding my community.

Angela Haas (09:48.633)
Yeah, I find that those connections come sometimes in the hallways or in between things or I've noticed for me, even though I'm extroverted, don't, I'm kind of weird at conferences. I need a wingman or woman or person, you know, I need someone that I can be like a little tethered to so I can like go out of the nest and then come back to my friend and be like, okay, where do we go?

Herman Steuernagel (09:54.765)
Mm-hmm.

Herman Steuernagel (10:07.022)
you

Herman Steuernagel (10:18.168)
Right.

Angela Haas (10:18.347)
And that's how I was at, because I was there at 20 Books to 50K with you and I had Cassie and just I had CJ and that made me feel like I felt like, because sometimes, especially as extroverts, I have learned that sometimes now,

This is a rumor. I don't know if it's true that sometimes extroverts like me tend to exhaust introverts. Sometimes. I don't know. I've heard it maybe, but I've had to learn that I don't want to just rush up and be like, Hey, I'm Angela. Can we be friends? Which is sort of an instinct, but I've dialed back so much that I kind of takes me a little bit of time to make those conversations happen.

And I've gotten better at it, but I just sort of, I had to like tell myself like, okay, you still can put yourself out there. You can still talk to people. For me, I had only published one book too at the time. And I felt a little intimidated because I thought everyone around me was like these super heavy hitters. then once you do start talking to people, there's people who have never published before. And I think that's where the value comes is I think we.

Herman Steuernagel (11:20.321)
Right.

Angela Haas (11:37.765)
can all agree that sometimes writing is a lonely business. You're in your hobbit hole writing away, you know, whenever you're doing that. And we're longing for some connection of like, hey, I need to talk this out with someone or is anyone experiencing the same thing? And I think that's where the value comes in for me is feeling like I'm not so lonely as a writer, that there's other voices out there.

Cassie Newell (11:59.899)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (12:06.807)
Speaking of approaching an introvert though, I think this is such a great question to talk about. Like Herman, like how should people approach introverts or in general? Because I'm ambivert, I can go either way. I can be a solo act walking in, I'm fine. And I can be very high energy as well. But I also know,

Angela Haas (12:07.228)
Angela Haas (12:13.103)
Eh.

Cassie Newell (12:34.637)
I will need time by myself at some point. I will need to resort to my hotel room for a breather. in your experience, what's the best way to approach other authors at these conferences?

Herman Steuernagel (12:37.934)
Great.

Herman Steuernagel (12:50.048)
as an extrovert approaching an introvert. Yeah, that's difficult because it really depends. That would be difficult for me for someone to come up to me like that if I didn't have any pre-existing connection. Now, if it's someone like, let's say, it's one of my recommendations was to find out what...

Cassie Newell (12:53.53)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (12:54.105)
What can you tell us?

Cassie Newell (13:03.694)
It would. Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (13:13.746)
events are going on outside of the conference, like the extra activities. Sometimes, you know, 20 books had like genre meetups and they had location meetups and that sort of thing. If I'm in a situation like that and someone comes up to me and starts asking me about my genre that I'm writing because let's say I'm at a sci-fi meetup or whatever, and

Angela Haas (13:17.53)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (13:20.922)
Yes.

Herman Steuernagel (13:33.282)
That's different because now I've put myself into a situation where I want to be approached. But if I'm just standing in the hallway and someone comes up and asks, know, starts talking to me, I shouldn't even say that. That's really difficult because it's really going to depend on the person and it's really going to depend on the situation. Like, don't come and talk to me when I'm in the bathroom. if I'm in, you know, if I'm in, if I put myself in a situation where it looks like I want to have someone come and talk to me, that is different.

Cassie Newell (13:38.073)
Right.

Cassie Newell (13:48.909)
Right. So

Angela Haas (13:52.431)
Well, whoa.

Herman Steuernagel (14:03.118)
it's really hard to like say when and where I'd feel okay with that because sometimes I would be and sometimes I wouldn't be and it really is going to depend on the time of day where my head's at and what I'm Yeah, but...

Cassie Newell (14:06.65)
Right.

Cassie Newell (14:17.359)
Right, so I think the best thing you said was really, it depends on the person. B, it also depends on the situation and the format and the energy in which you're at. If you're in a mixer, if you are in a specific class that is for sci-fi or thrillers or whatever it is, then you are open to network, to talk, right?

Herman Steuernagel (14:42.818)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (14:44.229)
I think sometimes when you don't know people, but you get that look from across the way, you know, it's kind of like either, want to say hi because I know exactly who that person is. You know, sometimes you get that fangirl thing going in the back of my mind. That's Cassie world. And I'm like, I want to say hi, but I don't want to freak them out. You know, so, you know, it's, kind of judgment really, right? Around that.

Angela Haas (14:50.581)
Herman Steuernagel (15:03.072)
Thank you.

Right.

Herman Steuernagel (15:11.33)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (15:12.953)
Is there any preparation you have as an introvert though, going to these conferences in order to introduce yourself to other people?

Herman Steuernagel (15:23.212)
I don't know of any specific.

preparation that I do in order to introduce myself. At this point I kind of have an idea of who I am and what I write in these types of situations. Everyone's a writer, right? So you can at the very least talk about what you're writing. Even if you're not published yet, you can talk about, I'm writing a science fiction book and, you know, kind of talk about that. I like to ask people about themselves rather than, you know, it kind of takes the attention off of me. So I ask other people what they're doing.

Cassie Newell (15:34.021)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (15:53.71)
But you know what Angela was saying though, finding a wingman I find is the most helpful thing, especially if you know a person that's going before you even get there that you can buddy up with. This last time at Author Nation, I spent like the whole week with my buddy ZSD Amante because like he is like the most extroverted of extroverts. And so I got to meet a ton of people just because he's out there and he has a big network.

So, you know, one of the things for me to practice is find out who else is going and kind of like, then you have someone that you can.

team up with, hang out with, you don't have to feel like you're just this loner in a big room of people. Because I think that's sometimes the most intimidating thing for extroverts is that they don't want to approach people that they don't know. They don't want to assert themselves and feel awkward. I know every introvert is different, but for me, I just find that if I'm in a room of people I just do not know at all. I'm really hesitant to go up and insert myself into a group.

Cassie Newell (16:34.064)
Right.

Cassie Newell (16:56.016)
Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (16:57.41)
But if I've got a person or two that I know, then you start building those bubbles and they start expanding outwards. People they know know somebody else and you get to build your community that way. So yeah, the prep I do is kind of more, who do I know that's going and who can I tag along with?

Cassie Newell (17:15.277)
Right, that makes sense.

Angela Haas (17:18.083)
I think that's helpful. Find an extrovert buddy. For me, I'd have an introverted wingman person, whatever, and I can ping pong back and forth. I think I've done that before where I've had someone that I can kind of guide through. Like I can kind of part the crowd in the room and.

Herman Steuernagel (17:22.732)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (17:42.927)
find the group and then do some introductions and I have no problem doing that. So I think that's a really good point. If you can, know, find a friend and an extrovert is always helpful. But I think for the extroverts out there that are listening to this, think there's something about reading the room too.

Cassie Newell (17:48.217)
Yeah, me either.

Angela Haas (18:10.425)
because especially on zoom calls, you can always spot the extrovert because they have the hermeneisms where they're like raising their hand first and always talking first. And the trainings that the communication trainings that I've done are trying to teach extroverts to pause because introverts tend to not all wait before they answer the question. I'm talking in like a group setting, whereas the extroverts are always like, me, I've got the answer.

And so for extroverts, when you walk in a room, do some observations first. Really see who's talking to who and who might be kind. I know some people kind of stand on the periphery. They sort of stand on the edges. Is there someone alone in the hallway that's got headphones on and they're buried in a book or a notebook? Maybe don't approach that person. If you are at a mixer.

And there's different groups talking. Maybe it's okay to go in and be like, hi, I'm Angela. What do you write or what are you focusing on? And this is my friend so-and-so. And then the conversation starts. But I think for us as extroverts, reading the room is still valuable, really taking time to let others talk and answer and not just jumping in and going up to people and.

because some people just might not be as comfortable as you. So that's from the extrovert. But let's talk about when the conference ends and what do you do? does it deplete you? Do you feel like after those like constant, cause even as an extrovert, I feel depleted. I feel like I'm exhausted. I'm energized.

Cassie Newell (20:00.368)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (20:02.553)
So I could keep going, but I need some time to recharge. What are some ways that people can do some self-care, recharging? What do you do and what would you might recommend? I know it's different for everyone, but.

Herman Steuernagel (20:14.018)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be different from everyone. You know, I think there's two pieces there. There's kind of the after day unwind and there's then the after conference unwind because I find, know, for myself, if I'm spending, if I've spent the entire day in a room of people talking to people, by the end of the day, I'm done. Like I'm like in bed at nine o'clock and I'm just ready to like spend some time with myself to recharge, right? I think it's important for people to realize that just because you're at a conference,

Angela Haas (20:29.467)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (20:34.957)
Right. Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (20:42.828)
like this doesn't mean you can't take time for yourself. Because you can fill up your entire day and evening and nighttime with socializing and feel like that because you're there and you spent all this money to get there that you need to every minute. And if you can do that then that's I think that's fantastic. I struggle with that. I need to take you know even if it's just 15 minutes half an hour to go up to my room and just chill out for a bit.

gather myself and go back down if I, because I do feel that pressure. I do feel the need like, well, I should go down and hang out at the bar tonight because there's people down there that I haven't talked to and would like to talk to, right? But I think knowing that you can take time for yourself during the event is really important. And then the second piece is when you get home. You know, I didn't think that I needed to recharge after a conference. It didn't even occur to me.

until after I got home this conference. So I'm like, why am I so wiped? I'm just so tired. You know, I've had this great experience. You're on a bit of a high. You've got so many ideas, but I'm like, I'm too tired to implement any of these ideas. What's going on? I'm like, you know what? That it is draining. It's draining, you know, talking to people for a solid week, or even if it's three or four days and

you're getting input, all these ideas, you're coming up with ways to improve your business and you want to do everything all at once. So I think that, I mean, the biggest thing is not to plan anything that week after you're back, especially as, you I think often for myself, you know, like you're learning, you're learning about Facebook ads, you're learning about audio books, you're learning about all these different things that you are so excited to implement into your business and you want to step off the plane and start doing them.

Cassie Newell (22:30.178)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (22:32.79)
And then you then you crash and you're like, what? Why I want to do all this stuff. This is never going to work. And I think, you know, scheduling some time just to like unwind when you get back is important too, because a lot of us have day jobs. A lot of us can't just like aren't writing full time just yet. So you got to go to work to the next Monday. So like you can't just be on the go all the time without taking any sort of a break as much as we might like to think so. I'm definitely guilty of that. I take on way too much all the time.

Hence, we were talking a bit before we hit about record about the podcast I was running. And it just got to be too much between my day job and writing and everything else I was trying to do at the same time. Similarly, when you get back from a conference, just understand you're not going to be able to implement everything at once. Take a step back, maybe review any notes that you took, take stock. What I did last year, not this last year, but...

year we went Angela and Cassie were there too. I like kind of wrote out a business plan for the next year and not I wasn't implementing anything. I just was kind of like going through okay here's kind of what I would like to see my business do in the next year and it was kind of just more of a passive activity where I could just like organize my thoughts put in to put some sort of action plan down and yeah really not just jump into the furnace right away.

so to speak. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (24:00.09)
Smart.

Angela Haas (24:01.135)
That's a great, That's a great plan. And I think because that's where your energy depletion probably comes in. You've got information overload, not just social. And part of you probably feels like I've got to do all this or what, what am I trying to remember? Or what was that thing? I've got to, you know, you you're trying to like sort all the information, but

Herman Steuernagel (24:10.486)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (24:11.387)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (24:25.891)
I really appreciate you saying, because I think people need to hear like, don't feel pressure, like you've got to come away with, you've got to do it all because, you know, we can't do it all. can't have it all. Can't do it all. Let's take those baby steps.

Cassie Newell (24:36.486)
Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (24:36.972)
Yeah, no. And I think we do it to ourselves, right? Like we want to do all things. Like all the, like we're excited about our writing, we're excited about our author career, so we want to do it all, and now we have these ideas. So I mean, for me, I feel like, okay, now I've got to do them. And often I haven't made the best decisions in taking that route. And again, like I said, you know, I was just, when I got back this...

Cassie Newell (24:39.695)
Enter. Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (25:03.192)
from this year. hadn't, I should have learned from the year prior, but I don't think I realized what I had done until I reflected back on it. And looking back now, I'm like, you know what? I should have taken a week to digest rather than trying to jump into the action right away.

Angela Haas (25:17.252)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (25:20.943)
Right.

Cassie Newell (25:20.987)
You know, it's interesting you say that my little scientific brain, because I do have a scientific background, energy is kinetic. And so when you don't have a place to put that energy, it drains. And what you did was you transferred your kinetic energy to paper in your plant. I mean, it's really quite smart. I love that. You know, I tend to do that myself. And I actually typically will schedule a day home.

Angela Haas (25:29.136)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (25:50.959)
without work. So for example, I'm going to see Angela at Superstars. I'm going back to that conference, which I love, and I'm taking that Monday off. I will be flying home Sunday, but I will need just a decompress. And that's when I kind of, you know, take that time. But I'm curious because with the conferences you've been to,

Herman Steuernagel (25:52.792)
part.

Herman Steuernagel (25:59.566)
place.

Herman Steuernagel (26:07.608)
Right.

Cassie Newell (26:16.857)
and the networking that you have done and have experience in. I'm kind of curious, are there any specific opportunities or breakthroughs that have come from attending those conferences? Because I know sometimes I want to do all the things, but when I sit down, go, that's not right yet for me, or it may not be in my personality yet, or where my career is at. But I'm just kind of curious about your breakthrough opportunities and what were those?

Herman Steuernagel (26:44.034)
Yeah, it's funny, know, most of my, what I would consider my breakthrough opportunities was just from meeting other authors and connecting. Like, so this year, because of some of the connections I made, I got invited to participate in a short story anthology, which, you know, has a big group of, you know, well established, you know, indie authors that, you know, it's going to be a great opportunity for myself.

Cassie Newell (26:51.008)
great.

Angela Haas (26:52.187)
Mm-hmm.

Herman Steuernagel (27:11.788)
those can, and you know, I've developed friends that, you know, I met at the first 20 books conference for four and a half years ago that I'm still friends with now that I chat with often. So those are kind of the breakthroughs that I've found just like, you know, when you first sit down to write, at least when I first sat down to write and decide I'm going to write a book, I had no community around me. Like I had nowhere, no idea where to look even for community.

And it took me a while. I eventually started to find some, pick some up along the way, but if you don't really know where to look, it can be kind of lonely at the beginning.

So kind of what my biggest takeaways from the conference are kind of the connections I've made and the people I've gotten to meet. Even you know being an introvert, I've still made those connections here. You know you see people several times during an event and you get to know who they are and sometimes those opportunities come from connecting with these people.

Cassie Newell (28:13.041)
great.

Herman Steuernagel (28:13.056)
Some of the learning breakthroughs that I've come through, yeah, I've gone down some weird rabbit holes because of things that have come up at conferences that I thought were gonna be great. And then you try to execute them and you're like, no, this just wasn't it. I tried doing some audio book AI narration a couple of years ago. And I spent so much time, like, cause it sounded like it was gonna be an easy.

Angela Haas (28:20.506)
haha

Herman Steuernagel (28:39.776)
win because I don't have any of my books in audiobook yet. I have my first one coming out in a few months, but I'm like, well this way I can have something out at least because people have been asking. But yeah, it was just not the thing. you know sometimes those things that you pick up at a conference aren't what they seem to be or they don't, like you said, they don't fit your personality or what you're trying to do because that's not something I'll go down again.

Cassie Newell (29:03.792)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (29:10.481)
But yeah, so it's interesting that I think the most important breakthroughs have been the people I've met. This last year I met Oriana, the, or, oh, that's not her name, Oriya? the leader of the publishing end of Kickstarter, yes. Or, yeah, yes.

Angela Haas (29:27.693)
Yes, orna, orna, is that orna? Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (29:32.652)
I did meet her and I got to talk to her about my Kickstarter. And she, you know, I was able to talk to the, you know, the head of the publishing arm of Kickstarter about my Kickstarter, which I mean, I wouldn't have gotten that opportunity anywhere else. So just those types of connections are really, you know, exciting and really important if you're willing to, you know, put yourself out there a little bit, because that wasn't an easy, that was somebody I approached cold and that wasn't easy. So.

Angela Haas (29:36.239)
That's amazing.

Angela Haas (29:43.024)
Wow.

Cassie Newell (29:43.377)
That's fabulous.

Angela Haas (29:47.258)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (29:58.819)
Ooh, good for you. And look what came of it. And the one thing I wondered your take on too, because I don't want people who maybe have gone to a conference and said, wow, you know, I talked to all these people and nothing happened. And I would say don't get discouraged if things aren't always instant. You know, you have to remember that other people going that maybe you've met.

Cassie Newell (30:00.016)
Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (30:02.669)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (30:26.357)
are digesting and getting back to their lives too. And I've had things come way later where I made a connection and then someone reached out months later or saw me at the next conference and said, yeah, I remember you. And even I started a relationship with Kathleen at Book Brush.

And cause we got into a conversation about covers and I reached out and had some other questions and she totally remembered me, which I was not expecting because you just know that people meet so many people. I mean, there's people that I probably met and are like, well, we're best friends. then like, okay, I forgot your name, which is just, that's part of like human nature. We have so much information coming at us all the time.

Cassie Newell (31:02.48)
Right.

Cassie Newell (31:10.737)
You

Herman Steuernagel (31:17.582)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (31:18.543)
you know, having these expectations that people are going to instantly connect, reconnect, or reach out or remember, you know, sometimes it might take a little time. But have you noticed that that sometimes connections have come or things have come later, not instantly after the conference?

Cassie Newell (31:25.329)
Mm.

Herman Steuernagel (31:35.182)
Yeah, you know, 100%. I know that's a really good point because I think, you know, several conferences in you kind of forget what that first conference was like. You know, so so the first 20 books conference I went to, I think I walked away from that conference that what I can say with one relationship that I

Angela Haas (31:43.887)
Mm-hmm.

Herman Steuernagel (31:53.868)
really met the person I knew who they were before. And now we're good friends. But I would have walked away from that saying I made one good connection. I got a lot of good information because that's what I went to that conference for was to get information. sat in all the sessions and I met a lot of people, but I probably walked away with like, okay, I have one new friend out of this. I went back the next year. And now you're seeing the people that you kind of just met here and there. And now you can build on that, that initial meeting, because like you said, they remember

Angela Haas (32:12.421)
Mm-hmm.

Herman Steuernagel (32:23.812)
who you are even though you didn't expect them to. And then you're building on those relationships just like any other relationship even though there was a year in between and you probably haven't talked since.

Angela Haas (32:35.524)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (32:35.792)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (32:36.206)
So, You know, there's definitely situations like that. And yeah, definitely if you go to one conference, you're like, well, I met some people I never don't think I'll ever talk to them again. Yeah, don't be just don't be discouraged because I mean, that's not necessarily the end of that you might see them out. Even if it's not the same conference, you'll see them at another conference. The indie world is there's tons of indie authors, but it's really a small place you run. It's amazing how many people that you run into that cross paths with other

Angela Haas (32:43.556)
Right.

Angela Haas (32:56.708)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (32:59.131)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (33:02.444)
conferences and other situations. So I mean, don't write it all off because one conference didn't live up to whatever expectations that you had of it. I definitely think you know, the fourth time I went to the same conference, I definitely had more meaningful conversations and connections than the first time I went.

Angela Haas (33:22.139)
Yeah. Well, and I think, okay, we're romance writers, so size matters. I had to say it. But Cassie, you've been, well, it does. You've been to the big kahuna, like at 20 books to 50K now called Author Nation and superstars much smaller. What I think, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so I think

Cassie Newell (33:22.513)
you

Cassie Newell (33:30.321)
I'm sorry.

Herman Steuernagel (33:36.258)
Hehehe.

Cassie Newell (33:45.067)
and Florida Writers' Associations. Yeah, so I've been to smaller ones too.

Angela Haas (33:51.653)
How many author nation, well, at least when we went to 20 books, was like, was it 1800 people? 2000? Yeah. And then superstars is always like right around like four to 500 people. So a lot smaller, but Cassie, did you, did you notice a difference between having more people versus less the size of the conference? What did you take away from those two?

Herman Steuernagel (33:56.878)
Something to yes, that's a 2000 that one. Yeah

Cassie Newell (33:59.621)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (34:18.115)
So If I'm just comparing those two specifically, I would say that a smaller conference, you can get more intimate conversations and meet people a little bit easier. I think the larger conferences, not that you don't have big names at smaller conferences because you do, but your access to them is easier than at something bigger.

And I can say just because I've been to the Florida FWA conference several times that's local to me. Well, not super local, but in my state. And there's ones in Atlanta. There's all over local conferences that you can go to. I think there are nice ease in before you go to something super big. And in my perspective, but I do think I got a lot.

out of the smaller conference, but the bigger conference for me, which was great, was I got to see my friends and community that are so global and diverse that I probably wouldn't get to sit with them and have breakfast with my friend from the UK and get to hang out with.

Angela Haas (35:27.332)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (35:43.183)
my friend from Colorado, you know, like going to dinner and all the things because it's just been Zoom calls and it's not even a convention of the pandemic, it's a convention of location. And you're not probably gonna go to the smaller local ones, you know, and I would say superstars, I wouldn't call it small. I actually think it's more midsize for sure, because.

FWA is smaller, although it's gotten bigger over the years. But you know, I would say it's more midsize. And I think there's a reason for that too. But I think there's an intimacy, like I said, with the smaller ones than there are with the larger ones. But there's an excitement and a buzz around the larger ones because they have some pretty big names, pretty big ticket items, you know, that they're bringing in the draw in a global perspective.

Again, not to say that there aren't big names at the other ones because there are, you know, but it is a big draw. What do you think, Angela? Because you've done both too.

Herman Steuernagel (36:42.446)
You

Yeah.

Angela Haas (36:46.851)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (36:51.272)
I think, I mean, I kind of liked the smaller ones better just because I felt like I was able to see, you know, at 20 books and I'm only referring to 20 books because it has changed hands, but that's when I went, it was 20 books to 50 K and.

That was amazing. But I felt like I'd see a person and then never see them again. You know, someone I'm like, gosh, I was really having this great conversation with someone in this seminar. And then I never saw them again. And I forgot to like get a card or something or keep that connection. Whereas superstars are seeing the same people over and over. And that's how the relationship started to build. You also have more access.

two people and I mean for me I went from being an attendee and now I'm a speaker this year and I've made connections with all the people who are behind the scenes. Kevin J Anderson is a big name that helps. He is a major coordinator of superstars and he is of the Dune movie and book franchise fame and he's written Star Wars.

novels and X-Files novels. And so he's a really big name and Superstars was actually founded. One of the founders is Brandon Sanderson. So, and Jim Butcher attends. And I think there are those that actually prefer the smaller. And like Cassie, you said you have more access to those people because Superstars does a great sort of VIP dinner where you can be at a table with one of these authors.

Cassie Newell (38:30.831)
You do.

Angela Haas (38:37.979)
and get to like pick their brain and have more a deeper conversation with them. But I just love the fact that I did make friends and I felt like I kept seeing them in the hallways because it wasn't so big. Herman, what do you think? you kind of agree with that?

Herman Steuernagel (38:53.324)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I haven't been to a smaller conference, like superstars or that, but I would say that, you know, it definitely would be easy to show up to 20 books or author nation now, or, know, one of these bigger events and just show up, go to the sessions, go back up to your room and feel like you didn't get anything out of it because you could get lost. You're not going to see the same people. Even if you do see the same people, they might, you know,

Cassie Newell (38:53.872)
Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (39:22.568)
might not have a conversation with anybody. And I think, you know, kind of going back to my original point, that's why it's important to set your intent before you go to one of these conferences, because you don't want to get lost in the big crowd. I, you know, I found, especially the last couple years, I mean, I've, there's tons of people, but you're not going to interact with 90 % of them. You've got to kind of find your crowd, find your team and

Cassie Newell (39:36.347)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (39:51.68)
and kind of build your connection with who's going to have that impact, who's like-minded to your author career, because there's so many authors there that are on a different trajectory than you are, that you're kind of really looking for people who you can kind of collaborate with and help out and ask questions of later that are going to relate to what you're doing. Because yeah, otherwise, I feel like you get overwhelmed. You're talking to, you know, 300 other writers that have nothing to do with your genre or what's your marketing.

Cassie Newell (40:02.214)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (40:19.995)
you

Herman Steuernagel (40:21.196)
looks like or anything that has any relevance to you and you can burn out your social meter by having those conversations and not not that they're not good people or nice people or that you might not have a good you might not you might still get something out of it but you know really being intentional what you're looking for when you're going into those conversations is really going to have an impact on who your bubble is during the bigger conferences because you can't look at it like

Cassie Newell (40:32.24)
Right.

Cassie Newell (40:46.778)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (40:50.062)
there's 2000 people here and oh my goodness, there's a big name author on stage because yeah, I mean, you're right, Cassie, you're probably not going to get more than a minute with them if anything and they're not going to remember who you are. So the smaller conferences would have that advantage, but Jim Butcher is probably not going to, even if I sat with him for an hour, is probably not going to help me market my book because he's just like in a different league than I am. Whereas another indie author who, you know, maybe has

maybe has a slightly bigger audience than me could help me market my book and give me ideas of what's working for them. And I can bounce ideas off with them a week later once we're both home and have some time to think of it. So I think it just comes down to an intention and making sure that you connect with a, you don't feel like you have to connect with absolutely everybody in the room because you don't find the people who are going to make an impact to your writing career.

Cassie Newell (41:24.965)
Right.

Cassie Newell (41:48.219)
The other thing I wanted to add really quickly is what I did love about 20 books to 50K, now Author Nation, is the vendor day. Because if you have ever, you see all the software, you see all these training things, and maybe you haven't bought into it and you're on the fence about it, you get to talk to them.

Angela Haas (41:48.57)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (42:02.886)
Yes.

Angela Haas (42:15.215)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (42:15.365)
You know, and sometimes it may be an education day for you and just making those connections, getting the brochures, understanding how the audio books work with Podium and all the things. I mean, it's pretty vast and it's pretty incredible. And I would say that was a big advantage for me walking around and kind of getting the scope of things because I was very curious about

different writing software and things I was kind of testing out. So yeah, that was a big advantage.

Angela Haas (42:52.187)
Yeah. Well, amazing conversation. Cassie, do you have any other questions for Herman or anything else? I mean, I think.

Cassie Newell (43:01.721)
No, I feel like, sorry. You asked me and I was like, well, I'm just gonna go. Okay, so I feel like I've covered all the questions I had about just attending a conference. I'm curious, how do you select your conferences that you go to? That's probably my last question. But.

Angela Haas (43:05.957)
Go. Go.

Herman Steuernagel (43:10.968)
Thank you.

Herman Steuernagel (43:27.384)
Yeah, that's a good one too. I initially went to 20 books because it was a big event and I was specifically looking for a conference in Vegas because Vegas is easy to get to and it was the biggest one. So I'm that sounds great. It's gonna have a lot of information. Cause I was looking for information. I kept going back to it for a number of reasons. Like the year we went, I only went because I knew

Cassie Newell (43:41.04)
Mm.

Herman Steuernagel (43:56.984)
who was going to be there and I wanted to connect with community that I had never actually met. So that was fantastic. So a big draw for me is that is who's going to be there and who can I connect with that? Maybe I've talked to online, I'm friends with, consider friends. I met a lot of people through my podcast that I haven't met in person. So going to WorldCon for me is going to be a big part of that because a lot of the people I interviewed are going to be there.

And it's easy for me to get to. It's hard for me to get to Florida to go to a conference or to Scotland. So it's got to be kind of easy. I know, right? So it's got to be something that I can easily get to. Budget's a factor. And who's going to be there? What impact is it going to have on my career? Worldcon's going to be a very different conference for me because it's a lot of trad pub.

Angela Haas (44:34.413)
Right. Yeah. Yes.

Cassie Newell (44:35.675)
bucket list.

Herman Steuernagel (44:55.502)
At world cons because they have to mean they host the Hugo's And it's gonna be a different crowd than what I normally have connected with the past but that's part of the excitement because I get to expand my My network of people so I'm looking forward to it

Angela Haas (44:56.089)
Mmm.

Angela Haas (45:10.127)
That's awesome. And I think, you know, if people are, it's not the same, but if people are looking, If you've never been to like any sort of conference setting, know, IncorsCon is an online conference. And Maybe that's a way just to see how you process all the information and you're still sitting in online from the comfort of your home. So it's, it isn't the same as being there in person.

but you're still talking with other authors, you're still making some connections, you're still getting learning, you're getting new ideas possibly that if for someone's like, I don't know if I could handle it or whatever, you could try an online conference. I don't know if there's other, I know InkersCon is all online now. Is there another online conference? There's a writing.

Cassie Newell (46:02.993)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (46:06.529)
It's the Romance Writing Mastery Summit. know that one's online. They had some great speakers. I learned a lot while I was able to be in my sweatpants and eat potato chips with my camera off. So was like, hello, this is amazing. Herman, Cassie, what other online ones do you know of that might be good?

Herman Steuernagel (46:18.776)
you

Herman Steuernagel (46:29.58)
I know ProWritingAid has occasionally has some genre specific ones. I think Reedsy might have had them in the past. I'm not sure.

Angela Haas (46:33.275)
yes, yeah.

Angela Haas (46:38.457)
They do, yeah. But the pro-writing age ones are good because they have, know, yeah, yeah.

Cassie Newell (46:42.875)
Autocrit does those too. They're really good as well. Yeah, I went to the last self-publishing conference in Austin, Texas. I feel like a lot of the conferences you can go to will also offer a remote option if cost is also a factor in attending. Not all of them, but a lot of them do.

Yeah, I can't think of any off the top of my head at the moment. Inkers Con is probably the most popular. I know Atlanta writers has a dual one.

Angela Haas (47:25.529)
The self-publishing show has a digital ticket that you can, yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (47:30.894)
I know that the SFF Addicts podcast also end with FanFi Addicts. They also run TBRCon, which is kind of a virtual as well. I don't know if they have the interaction piece of it, but they do have a lot of panels. And I think it's starting pretty soon here. So that might be one to check out if you're a fantasy sci-fi author.

Cassie Newell (47:40.305)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (47:41.432)
Okay.

Angela Haas (47:49.646)
Okay.

Okay, well, we'll try to leave some other links in the show notes. But Herman, what else are you working on right now just so that other people can because you recently Herman had an amazing Kickstarter that got projects we love badge from Kickstarter. It's the book behind you bartender between worlds. And then you're working on the sequel, correct for the Kickstarter.

Herman Steuernagel (48:18.766)
Correct. Yes, so The Bartender Between Worlds is a cozy fantasy novel. I am working on the sequel. It's called The Greatest Pub in the Multiverse. I'm frantically trying to get it ready for my editor. And I also have a Kickstarter for that book, another special edition for that one running February 22nd. So that one is already up and it already has a Project We Love badge, which I'm super excited about.

Angela Haas (48:32.015)
Hehehe.

Angela Haas (48:38.872)
Okay.

Angela Haas (48:42.945)
Wow, that's so great.

Herman Steuernagel (48:45.242)
And, you know, yeah, so I'm really looking forward to running that. Yeah, I've got kind of lots on the go and work. I've got my audio book in production now for the bartender between worlds. I've got

Yeah, right now, right, sorry, right now my brain has really just been getting this book ready for the editor. I've been kind of, you know, nose to the grindstone. I mentioned the short story for the anthology. I can't talk about that yet, but I've been, you know, kind of threw that together in a couple of weeks, but there'll be more information on that coming out in the coming months. So, yeah, so right now, you know, I started off writing dystopian and science fiction in the last year. I've started writing Cozy Fantasy just for something a little lower

Angela Haas (49:09.741)
Yeah. Ooh, top secret. Yeah, that's great.

That's great. Well.

Herman Steuernagel (49:31.3)
stakes and you know a little more fun for me to write. I enjoy both but the Cozy Fantasy has been a lot of fun and I've really been enjoying it. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Angela Haas (49:41.083)
That's great. No, they're... Yeah, they're so good. Well, he has drink recipes in there. I mean, like, come on.

Cassie Newell (49:41.937)
And it's really good. I love it.

Herman Steuernagel (49:48.814)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (49:49.337)
I have to say though, as a, cause I was one of your Kickstarter people and I'm already set up for the next one, but I just thought it was so nice how you considered your reader and those that backed you and your names are in the back of the book and just, it's just, chef's kiss, such a great job. The artwork, it was amazing. I love it so much.

Angela Haas (50:08.696)
Herman Steuernagel (50:11.128)
Thank you.

Angela Haas (50:11.483)
Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (50:14.254)
Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Angela Haas (50:15.432)
yeah, it was amazing.

Cassie Newell (50:18.595)
If anybody is interested in Book 2's Kickstarter, we'll have that link, I'm sure. We can add that because it was fabulous and it's such a good read.

Angela Haas (50:23.951)
Yes. And you should be. Yeah. Yeah.

Herman Steuernagel (50:28.984)
Thank you. was such a learning opportunity that first Kickstarter, because I had no, I mean, I had like no expectations going into it. It was a trial. And then, I mean, it had 300 backers and it was, I felt like it was a mad scramble because I did not at all prepare to have that many people back in the campaign. But this book, you know, the second one is going to be, it's going to be even more fun. I've got more, even more drink recipes ready for it. I've got...

Angela Haas (50:46.467)
Right.

Herman Steuernagel (50:55.992)
full-colored artwork this time. I've got, yeah, I learned a lot from that first one that I'm gonna be able to implement into this one now too, so.

Angela Haas (51:05.752)
just been struck by lightning. my God, next time we have you on Herman, we should make one of your drinks.

Cassie Newell (51:12.881)
Ooh, I like it. Each one of us has a different one.

Herman Steuernagel (51:12.93)
Love it. Absolutely can do that.

Angela Haas (51:17.783)
Yes, okay. All right, that's Herman part two. All right, okay. Amazing conversation. We're gonna do our table topics. And this is a real game. There's a whole bunch of different kinds of themes for these, but they're basically just conversation starters, questions, just things you can do fun with friends. And I'm gonna pick this one and see. Okay, good one.

Herman Steuernagel (51:22.177)
Excellent.

Angela Haas (51:45.443)
Not the other one we picked before. Recording was Witcher's sexiest outfit and that doesn't fit today. But this one is a good one. What's the most extravagant thing you've ever purchased for yourself?

Mm.

Herman Steuernagel (52:02.538)
extravagant.

Herman Steuernagel (52:07.515)
man, that is a interesting question. My mind is blank.

Angela Haas (52:11.547)
I know what yours is actually, Herman. think so. You shared it with us because didn't you rent that crazy car in, you like rented that crazy sports car in Las Vegas. That might've been your most extravagance, but that was a really, that was an interesting purchase for you.

Herman Steuernagel (52:15.33)
You know what mine is?

Herman Steuernagel (52:25.228)
Yeah, yeah, that's when they came to mind.

Herman Steuernagel (52:33.55)
you

Well, it was a yeah, it was an interesting purchase. Yeah, so we rented a my wife and I after 20 books a few years ago We rented a sports car in Vegas and we drove out to the Hoover Dam and you know through the Red Rock Canyon and that out there So it was a lot of fun It definitely was expensive And I'd say yeah, I mean that was one that came to mind because it was you know It was a fancy car and driving in Vegas was not my cup of tea because I'm a small town and I realized very quickly I'm not used to city driving anymore in a car that

I can't properly see how to shoulder check out of. So driving on the highway was fantastic. I had a great time. We had a great time with that. But that was a lot of, yeah, it was a lot of fun. And that's definitely probably up there as far as extravagance goes. So, yeah, thank you.

Angela Haas (53:06.408)
I'm

Cassie Newell (53:07.812)
Ha

Angela Haas (53:19.62)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (53:22.129)
I have no idea. I'm like, I'm a little stumped. I have bought expensive artwork before, but I am a big supporter of art and artists and creatives. But for myself directly,

Angela Haas (53:23.106)
Cassie.

Cassie Newell (53:47.835)
Yeah, I can't really think of anything that I've just thought myself that was super extravagant. I'm not too extravagant.

I know what I did.

Speaking of conferences, I had an opportunity to upgrade myself and so I did. I'm flying in first class. I'm loving that. That's extravagant.

Herman Steuernagel (54:15.394)
Wonderful.

Angela Haas (54:15.479)
good. Yeah, you should always do that. But yes.

Herman Steuernagel (54:19.562)
Absolutely.

Cassie Newell (54:21.038)
Always do that when you can but it is extravagant, but I'm also celebrating some book releases for myself and Yeah, I had the opportunity so

Herman Steuernagel (54:34.978)
Very cool.

Angela Haas (54:35.577)
my gosh. Well, cool. Well, they give you champagne. So we, this is going to sound snobby, but after 30 years of toiling in the retail industry, my husband's a genius and he attached like the corporate purchasing card to our United miles. So every purchase, have 900 vendors. So every purchase goes into our miles. So we've

Herman Steuernagel (55:01.261)
Thanks.

Angela Haas (55:02.703)
been flying first class because it's a long, have so many miles. so yeah, we, that's amazing. But I think for me, when I was in college, I saved up and I bought like a Dooney and Burke purse. And I thought I was like the coolest person in the world. And really those purchases, they, do so much extra. get a bag and there's a certificate of authenticity. And then I realized.

I'm from green mountain falls, Colorado. I'm going to school in Greenlee, Colorado. Where the hell am going to take this purse around? Like, what am I doing? Because it was like, I wasn't living in a culture that even anyone knew what it was or where I felt like I could like show it off. But I did. And I really liked it. And I felt like I was just so boss. But then I was like, yeah.

I mean, greatly, but that was probably one of the most, I don't really spend money on handbags or shoes of that nature. and so I felt pretty cool doing it, then I wasn't sure what to do with it. Hmm. Anyway, so amazing conversation today. Thank you again, Herman, for taking time to be with us and thank you, Cassie.

Cassie Newell (56:04.849)
You

Herman Steuernagel (56:30.114)
Thank you so much for having me.

Angela Haas (56:32.577)
for all your wisdom. Next week we are talking about our experience and recording, hopefully live from superstars. That episode will air after, but next week we're just gonna wing it, see if we get some guests to come by our table and just talk about all that conference and what we're doing and learning and digesting. And yeah, it should be an interesting episode. So join us for that. Until then, keep writing.

Keep doing.

Bye.