Episode 16: Choosing The Right Point of View

Angela Haas (00:01.165)
Hello and welcome to episode 16. I'm Angela Haas and I'm here with my co-host Cassie Newell and this month we're talking all about the craft of writing. This episode we're talking about point of view and which point of view is right for you in your writing. So I actually love this topic because I think

point of view is such an interesting piece of the craft of writing, but sometimes it can be the most challenging. And first, I just want to run down the different points of view because I found this great article with Kindle preneur and it really just breaks down the points of view and how you use them. And now we have to pause.

because my dog is licking herself and I can't concentrate. So let's mark this.

Cassie Newell (01:00.088)
can't hear it. I was like, I can't hear it. Let Yes hit.

Angela Haas (01:07.267)
There is a great article from Kindlepreneur and it goes through all the different points of view. And it may seem like something basic that, why is this so hard? Or I can figure this out. But honestly, each point of view has different nuances that it's good to study each one before determining which one is right for you.

There's first person point of view, uses pronouns I and we. Second person point of view, which I've actually never read anything in. I don't know about you, but second point of view uses the... Yeah, they use the pronoun you. Third person point of view uses the pronouns she, he, they, it. And then that goes into whether you're doing third person limited or the narrow...

Cassie Newell (01:47.768)
but it's really limited.

Angela Haas (02:03.223)
reader only can see the thoughts, you know, the reader can only see the thoughts of one person. And usually when you're starting a scene, you give a cue to the reader like this point, this scene starts in this person's point of view, whether that's the name of the person at the chapter heading or just starting that dialogue or those thoughts from that person's point of view. There's third person omniscient where

The narrator knows more of the thoughts of more than just one person. And I think that can lead to head hopping, which we can talk about later. Then there's fourth person point of view, I've never heard of this, but it uses indefinite pronouns like one, oneself, someone, anyone.

Cassie Newell (02:47.308)
I never knew that.

Cassie Newell (02:55.488)
interesting. Is that more for non-fiction, I wonder?

Angela Haas (02:56.405)
Yeah, I didn't know about that. I wonder if it is because I've never read a fiction novel with that fourth person point of view. So for you, Cassie, which one is your favorite? Which one do you like to write in? Read in? Which one is easier for you?

Cassie Newell (03:06.319)
No. Mm-mm. I can't think of...

Cassie Newell (03:19.83)
It's interesting you asked me this question because I think in the beginning when I just started writing, I liked third person a lot. However, I've been writing in first person for so long now that it's second nature to me and also enjoy first person a little more because it's closer to the character.

Angela Haas (03:29.166)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (03:42.265)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (03:48.76)
because you're telling the character story. So you're in their head, you're feeling their feelings, and you're displaying them for the reader. So the reader is a little more attached. I think POV is one of those things where it's crucial in figuring out your storytelling because it shapes your narrative experience, right? whether you're going to be really close to it or a little bit removed from it and

Angela Haas (04:09.304)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (04:15.198)
and as a reader seeing it from afar or being in the experience with that character. And I think for me, I find more joy being in the experience of the character. What about you?

Angela Haas (04:31.031)
Yeah, I like both. For my superhero fiction, I did third person limited, but I always chose three points of view per novel because I just felt I didn't actually like feeling limited in that I chose, you know, like I couldn't see everyone's but I didn't want to head hop like it didn't want to be omniscient.

But as I started writing, only going with one character's point of view, even though that was third person, I still needed sometimes scenes in the camp villain where the hero wouldn't be. and I wanted, I always have a romantic subplot in my superhero fiction. So I choose, you know, the main character female.

Cassie Newell (05:17.997)
Right.

Angela Haas (05:30.199)
the love interest male and in the villains point of view. Or I have superheroes. So I did like one superhero, superhero who's on the edge of she's the shadow, you know, the shadow agent and love interest. But that actually was really fun to write in. And it gave me a lot of freedom when I switched to romance. I don't know if you'd agree, but I think most romance

is first person tie between present tense and past tense. So switching to first person was a real challenge because that is just such a different structure. And then switching from past tense, which my first novel was written in, to first person present, that was a challenge. Although I think

romance readers from what I've seen they really do like feeling that present tense the immediacy of everything happening right then and I think that they do like dual point of view with the male and female what do you think what have you read

Cassie Newell (06:48.768)
It's interesting because I'm reading Tessa Bailey, some of her books right now, and I thought they would be dual point of view and they're not, but I'm loving it. Hating Game, one of my favorites, is in one point of view throughout. It's just from the female's point of view in the book.

Angela Haas (06:53.175)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (06:59.565)
Mm-mm.

Angela Haas (07:09.461)
And Tessa Bailey does third person. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (07:12.394)
Yeah, yeah. The ones I currently have are in first person past tense, which doesn't bother me. I don't really, it's interesting because I tend to write easily, more easily in past tense and I edit. Not all the time, but I get in sections where I just can't get in the present. The verbs are like always in past tense and then I have to edit. I'm sure my editor is like, yes, but

Angela Haas (07:19.437)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (07:26.211)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (07:33.538)
Right.

Cassie Newell (07:41.216)
Anyway, yeah, I think what's interesting about point of view is it's, it's, how do I say this, it's like tone and style, right? And I, I find that romance, and I find this too, I can speak to young adult books as well. It's, you can, you think you know exactly how the point of views are going to go, but then you get a gem that's totally different.

Angela Haas (07:53.273)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (08:10.37)
and it's not set in that structure. But I think more current romance novels are definitely more first person. I think there's a reason for that though, because it sets this tone and style of getting you into the emotional impact of those characters, right? Either love them, you hate them, you want to smack one in the back of the head because they're doing stupid stuff or, you know, all the things that you wouldn't know otherwise, like

Angela Haas (08:26.615)
Right.

Angela Haas (08:33.857)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (08:39.392)
If it was third person limited, right? You wouldn't necessarily know unless you're telling, allowing the narrator to tell the reader everything and watching the characters discover it, which could be quite fun too. But I don't know, I tend to see those things. And we were talking about this in like mysteries, right? Because you kind of know or you may not know, you know, and they're misleading you the Red Herrings I love those in mysteries and thrillers and

other types of genres. just, I don't know, for me, I do like first person, it's a little easier for me. And I know we've talked about CliftonStrengths before, but I'm number one relator. So character, relator, like it's, it comes pretty natural to me. Yeah, I don't know. I think, what do you, do you think though that genre expectations are hard and fast?

Angela Haas (09:21.4)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (09:38.154)
how you see them. I'm just curious.

Angela Haas (09:40.695)
I it depends. There's traditionally published famous authors that I've read that head hop and I'm like, why do they get to break the rules? I thought this was a rule. Okay, head hopping is where you are in one scene and the point of view switches between every character in that scene. So it truly you are getting the inside thoughts.

Cassie Newell (09:42.158)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (09:51.992)
So talk about what head hopping is really quick. Yeah.

Angela Haas (10:08.669)
or point of view or take from each of those characters. So if you have a bigger cast scene, I find that it exhausts the reader because you're getting this person's inner thoughts, this person, even the cues that the body language cues that come with the dialogue tags, you're getting that person's point of view where I had to learn that piece.

coming out of third person that when I was writing first person, and I don't know if I have a good example, but that I'd write something where she, know, it wasn't like this, but that I would indicate how another character felt when you're not in that person's point of view. How do you know what that person's feeling? The reader won't know this.

Cassie Newell (11:01.356)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (11:04.918)
You can't, they can't. Yeah.

Angela Haas (11:07.755)
was a challenge I had to overcome because I kept doing that like I was in third person. But the head hopping, you really have to read carefully because sometimes it loses me like, who's talking or who is this? Whose thoughts are we in? But a lot of trad published authors do that. write with omniscient. But I think that trend is going away.

Cassie Newell (11:10.872)
Hmm. Right.

Angela Haas (11:37.523)
I think you have to study the genre conventions. If you're a new writer, I think that will help you. But you can truly write. think what's comfortable, what's easy, and what you like. I think you should start there. Because if you hate writing third person, you're not going to pull that off as well if you're fighting it. Do you agree with that?

Cassie Newell (11:43.298)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (11:54.35)
Thank

Cassie Newell (12:01.486)
Yeah, I would. I have a really good tip from a lady that coached me on point of view early on when I was just starting to draft stories in like 2010. But I was head hopping too. And she was like, put the name in the header, because I would write in Word back then, in the header so you know who's leading the conversation. And any time that you wanted to head hop,

Angela Haas (12:23.481)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (12:31.83)
don't add any descriptive words show their action to what the person is saying so that the other people can make the assumption of how they're feeling. So like, okay, this person said x, y, and z, and they're really angry. So show them throwing down their glass and breaking it stomping out of the room slamming a door. That also led me to a little bit of pantsing because I was like, that's fun. Now where do we go? You know, like, but those are

Angela Haas (12:41.44)
Right. That's,

Angela Haas (12:47.48)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (12:53.73)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (13:00.682)
really good tips to if you're starting out or if you feel like I'm head hopping and I shouldn't be because you're not trying to break the rules or go in this other direction. But control over point of view, you know, it really allows you to create suspense, it allows you to unveil character, backstory, their motivations, all kinds of things by their actions to what's happening around them.

Angela Haas (13:18.777)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (13:30.06)
And I love that about first person point of view right now. I'm drafting and enemies to lovers. And it's so fun. I decided to do something a little different. I wanted to ask you about this. I decided to go back and forth in this dual point of view that you're you were describing from both the main female and the love interest, the main male in my case, going back and forth. I decided that I'm staying with the female for like,

the first quarter, almost quarter of the first act. So like the first three to four chapters, because I really want you to hate him. And then I go from his point of view, you already don't like him, but now you can see where it's coming from. And then you start to have sympathy for him, because she sees him this way, but he's really not that way. But she kind of instigated it.

Angela Haas (14:06.509)
Nice.

Angela Haas (14:20.151)
I really like that.

Cassie Newell (14:27.2)
And then I go a couple with him and now I start to go back and forth a little bit. But I was like, I think people can play with point of view in dual point of view like that. But I'm curious, what are your thoughts around that? Because some people are like, very consistent and it's no back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And some are like, no, a couple here, a couple there. I've even seen Megan Quinn, for example, do it within a chapter.

changing the scene and having the name. And I was like, wow, brave, but it's working because I know, you know, like who it is. I mean, it's, it's very clear, you know, but what are your thoughts on dual point of view? Because I find it kind of confrontational.

Angela Haas (14:59.705)
Mmm.

Angela Haas (15:03.715)
Yeah, right.

Angela Haas (15:17.273)
think it can be. really like how you're doing that because isn't that the way of human nature as well, where we have maybe a false impression of someone and then it does take you learning about that person to maybe be like, well, I was not exactly accurate in my first impression.

Cassie Newell (15:28.471)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (15:42.569)
So that's sort of making that natural flow for the reader. Like they're just really on your character's side, like, yeah, what a jerk. And then once you have more information, then you're starting to root for them. So I think that's a great way to do it.

Cassie Newell (15:49.709)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (15:53.486)
What a jerk.

Cassie Newell (16:03.64)
We'll see if it flies. I don't know. Cause I was like, I don't know if people will like this or not, but I feel like it fits the trope. So we'll see. I have not seen that done though.

Angela Haas (16:11.853)
I've seen it done. I've seen that done in sci-fi where the first act is someone you're just in one person's act two switches. Act three switches. So it's very like seven scenes in one point of view.

Cassie Newell (16:18.307)
you have?

Cassie Newell (16:23.903)
Interesting.

I like it.

Cassie Newell (16:35.509)
Interesting.

Angela Haas (16:37.057)
So but that's also you may be on this one, you know, in sci fi, you have different teams, have expeditions exploration. So you're getting into the mindset of everyone on this team, team A, then you go to team B. In romance, I've seen it switch back and forth more. I tend to do at least two so that

Cassie Newell (16:46.572)
Right.

Angela Haas (17:07.161)
you can get settled in that character a little bit before it immediately switches unless I want them to react to the same moment. So in the one I'm currently writing, there's sort of a heated exchange during sunrise yoga. Yes, yes. But

Cassie Newell (17:10.594)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (17:19.406)
Mmm.

Cassie Newell (17:29.324)
Wow, I love it. That's like comedic fodder right there.

Angela Haas (17:36.769)
there's a little electricity going on and I switch because I want you to see how each character felt about that same moment right away. So.

Cassie Newell (17:39.95)
You

Cassie Newell (17:48.462)
Okay, yeah, I think that's what I was speaking about with Megan. The story continued forward, but I think it was our holiday one. I think the main male character backtracked just a little bit in his point of view of something that just happened and then carried that scene forward from his perspective, but I thought it odd because it broke up a chapter.

Angela Haas (17:52.515)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (18:01.741)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (18:12.281)
See, I'm not brave enough to do that. really, each chapter is its own point of view because I don't think I'm that good to pull it off.

Cassie Newell (18:15.223)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (18:22.968)
think I'm yeah, I just, I don't know. I think there's also that reader expectation of flow, right? I talked about that. So I don't know from in. Even though I'm the writer, I'm not necessarily always my reader. And I have to get me out of that sometimes when I'm trying to think strategically, but

Angela Haas (18:30.809)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (18:46.114)
And I didn't find it that disruptive. So I don't know. I don't know how I feel. I was like, it worked. Could I pull it? I don't know. Not right now. I'm not gonna try. But yeah.

Angela Haas (18:56.909)
I think if it means something to that scene, I think you should do it. I haven't had a scene where that would be cool, but I do try to keep it one to two, one to two, couple back and forth. But then I've read things where that tends to exhaust the reader, but it also depends because I doing that in my sci-fi, I think sci-fi superhero land. I did like three scenes in one point of view.

Cassie Newell (19:16.864)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (19:27.235)
then switch. So I really had, I wasn't going back and forth as much, but there's a lot more action. There's a lot more ways to fatigue your reader with sci-fi superheroes, cause you've got fight scenes, chase scenes, spaceship scenes. So you don't have a lot of that action in just contemporary romance. So it might be easier to go back and forth.

Cassie Newell (19:33.688)
Yeah, I remember my-

Cassie Newell (19:53.058)
Yeah.

Maybe. Yeah. That's interesting. I don't know. Point of view is, like, one of those things that I don't think too hard on either, I tend to feel as a writer, do what works for you, but also just be aware of what the conventions are with your comps and the genres you're in. And not only the genres, think about the subgenre too. Because some of those are a little different and peculiar.

Angela Haas (20:22.285)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (20:26.258)
their own natures like when you drill down. So yeah, and it's interesting because I feel like trends that are popular, they're like cyclical like bell bottom jeans, you know, like they go out of style, they come back in, they go out like, like all the things. So I don't know. I'm not I'm not necessarily a trailblazer.

Angela Haas (20:26.689)
Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Haas (20:43.203)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (20:47.097)
Yeah, like in the 90s, in the 90s when we were made fun of for wearing mom jeans and now they're back. Thanks. Cause we were, hello? I know.

Cassie Newell (20:52.991)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. High waisted jeans that have the ruffles, all the things right. But I, I feel like you know, whatever's I'm not a big trailblazer in this, in this particular sense. But I feel like if you feel really strongly and it's easy for you to write in a certain point of view, then go for it. If it serves your story, if you have rationale behind it, right, like make, you know, see how see how it will work, you know, I

Angela Haas (21:18.105)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (21:22.86)
I also think being a self-published author gives you that latitude, right? Now, if you were going to shop it, maybe really look at what the conventions are for how you're trying to sell it, because that's a different story, I think, in my mind. Do you feel that way?

Angela Haas (21:41.305)
yeah, I absolutely feel that way. And I will say you should read in the point of view that you're writing in because I was reading a romance in third person past trying to write in or no, it was the opposite. I was reading in first person present and I was trying to write in first person past and I kept switching to present because I was reading in it.

Cassie Newell (21:52.238)
Mmm.

Angela Haas (22:11.417)
So I would, I mean, if you can handle it fine, some people can write it, read in a completely different genre than they're writing in at the same time. But I would say it helps train you when you're reading in that exact point of view that you're currently writing in. So I try to keep that consistent. But I think you can do, I don't want to always say you can just do whatever you want because it does come down to, is this a hobby or do you want to make money?

Cassie Newell (22:11.478)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (22:24.226)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (22:41.483)
And sometimes when you want to have something that sells more and you want to make a profit, you do have to follow some of the rules or meet reader expectations. If this is just something fun that you're doing and you're self publishing because you just are, that's where you can kind of do whatever you want, but just be prepared. But I think the point that you made was a good one about

Cassie Newell (23:04.504)
Right.

Angela Haas (23:10.059)
if you can justify it, you know, if you can answer the question, why did you write in this point of view or why did you write this this way and you have a clear answer, then that's your answer. Then go forth, go forth, shine on you crazy diamond, just do it. You know? Yeah.

Cassie Newell (23:28.514)
Yeah, shine on. Yeah, absolutely.

Angela Haas (23:34.787)
So, but there's a lot to learn, but there's a lot of resources out there. I just think it's something, I'm glad we talked about it because you don't realize how nuanced it is of a topic when you're crafting.

Cassie Newell (23:50.786)
Yeah, and not a lot of people talk about it. I mean, you hear more in craft books, more so because, well, it's a little meatier, the show don't tell aspect. And usually, there's some aspects around point of view, right? But yeah, there's not like a, can't think of one that's just its own diamond in the rough somewhere sitting on a bookshelf.

Angela Haas (23:54.425)
Mm-mm.

Angela Haas (24:02.114)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (24:17.614)
About point of view, I mean, it's a fairly dry subject, but I'm sure Strunk and White has it in their grammar, you know, section of their book or whatever. like, it's not. But but I think the exciting part of it, like we said earlier, it it helps you drive your story, like how you reveal details, how that will come across to the reader, like, it's, it's an important piece of craft, for sure.

Angela Haas (24:25.813)
Right? Yeah.

Angela Haas (24:37.432)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (24:47.299)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (24:47.703)
Yeah, I think so. I agree. I think I'm glad we talked about it, at least just did a kind of an intro to it and then other people can go from there. So yeah. What about you? What updates do you have? What are you working on right now? You're drafting.

Cassie Newell (24:56.568)
Go.

Cassie Newell (25:07.76)
Wait, day is this coming out?

Angela Haas (25:11.513)
Well, you are drafting the pink text. I'll edit that market. Let's mark. Let me try this mark button. Yeah, I marked it. Well, you are drafting a new romance.

Cassie Newell (25:15.8)
say the title. Can we cut that out? Okay.

Cassie Newell (25:28.738)
I am and it's a full novel, so it's not a short romance.

Angela Haas (25:33.643)
And how has that been? You've been writing in short. So was it a challenge to go back to full or was it just like that?

Cassie Newell (25:37.324)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (25:41.832)
my gosh. Yeah, no, no, it's kind of like point of view. So and well, you know, you read my first chapter. So I went really fast. And it was a bit of an info dump because a I'm learning who my characters are and how I'm setting the stage around things. And then I started to go and I and as I revealed here, I'm doing so many chapters from the female point of view before moving to the male for reasons of the trope and to really

drive it home. And I realized, my gosh, my other chapters are so much more buildy, get to know not as action packed, even though I do need this action mechanism at the beginning. So I'm like, okay, that has to be edited. A lot of people are coming out of it. Because it was a lot of characters being kind of dumped in there to set the stage for for how things are going. So

Yeah, no, I would say I had to cool my jets. It's very different. And it's interesting because I have a coach and I was meeting with this coach for the first time and they were like, it's, it's really, really hard to write short and pull it off. Well, and I was thinking to myself, but I'm doing it and I love it. Okay, God, can I write a novel? You know, so then I started

Angela Haas (27:09.689)
You

Cassie Newell (27:11.342)
Doubting myself because it's been a hot minute, know, since, you know, you can, it's just slower beats builder building up beats, whereas writing short, I'm just very conscious of my word count and how to move things quickly without trying to feel so super rushed. But again, I'm all character. So tying you to feel about the characters that are involved in the story without it being too overwhelming.

in this little town. yeah, it's, it's been a, it's been a shift, for sure. And I keep sneaking in to my short that I need to finish for the holiday, which is if Angela was slave driving me right now, she'd be like, What are you doing? But I know, bear with me. But sometimes, you know, I get energy from completion.

Angela Haas (28:02.072)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (28:09.17)
And novels are longer, they're more onerous and just a little more difficult, even though I've got a really decent draft, I know where it's going. It's just kind of, it's tougher right now. I'm just having a tougher time meeting the daily word count. I'm definitely progressing, but it's, it's, need to get to a point where I'm just really rolling and I'm not quite there yet. How about you? What's going on with you?

Angela Haas (28:35.117)
Right.

Well, I'm trying to decide if I want to do an audiobook for my romance or if I need to put those resources into just creating more books. That's always the question, isn't it? Like, where do I allocate funds? Do I put something else out or do I save this for editing? You know, or should I get three romances out and then start audiobooks, which I think I may actually do?

Cassie Newell (28:51.393)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (29:07.629)
But yeah, I'm, yeah.

Cassie Newell (29:08.888)
And you know, it's not without work audiobooks, right? Because I announced a few, I'm doing that as well. There's scripts writing aspects that we the authors, well, the production company I'm working with, I have to do. And you have to fill out these long sheets about your book. Like, it's not like, hey, they're doing an audiobook and we're hands off. It's a lot of work. So when you're saying,

Angela Haas (29:31.16)
Right.

It's a lot of work. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (29:34.912)
Do I want to do now versus my resources of your time now in more books? It's a it's a good question, right? I mean, or I think it's not asking, right, Angela, that's a good question. No, it is a good question, because

Angela Haas (29:45.165)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (29:49.561)
It is. It's the question I have to, you know, I just have to look at my monthly budget and be like, okay, where can I spend money? Because self-publishing, you know, the costs are all on you. The control is with you. But also I have to be mindful. And, you know, I wanted to enter a few, I wanted to enter the romance into a few reward contests and

Cassie Newell (29:58.51)
Mm.

Angela Haas (30:19.523)
those cost money and that takes time to send out books. And it's like, where do I want to, where do I need to put my time and money? And it just keeps coming back to, need to put more books out before really. So, but I accidentally started a dark romance.

Cassie Newell (30:32.931)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (30:40.688)
Here I go.

Angela Haas (30:42.421)
I'm notorious. Like if I get stuck, then something else comes to me. But writing time is writing time. As long as I'm writing something.

So what if I have four different things started? I will finish them. the thing is I have to strike when the iron is hot because so much, as you know, work, life gets in the way of the creative energy. When I lose it, I lose it bad and I get writer's block. So any idea I have, I just write it down. I write when I have that energy. So.

As long as I'm writing and showing up to my writing time and writing something, that's enough, you know? So that's the personal update now. Table topic time. These are great first world problem, first world author problems to have. Yeah. I'm doing something. Hey.

Cassie Newell (31:37.39)
These are good problems to have though. Just think about all.

Yeah, but you're moving forward in your in your career regardless, right? Yeah.

Angela Haas (31:51.179)
I'm the okayest author in the world and that means I'm always doing it. Okay, what age were you in the best shape when I was a fetus? Pretty much when I was a fetus. That was like, I was unstoppable.

Cassie Newell (32:09.246)
You just right out the gate know the answer. You're like, when I was in the womb. Best shape of my life.

Angela Haas (32:11.193)
Yeah, this is a size zero. What were you? What about you?

Cassie Newell (32:24.814)
I was probably 16 or 17. I used to play tennis and I was super active and living in Oklahoma is where I went to high school and we would get, they had these country clubs, you know, that you would go to, well, when I say country clubs, I mean, country dance bar clubs that you could go into. Yeah, that you could go into.

Angela Haas (32:45.849)
Let's yeah, that's a that's a little different. I was picturing like the yacht club and you're like, OK, is in a barn.

Cassie Newell (32:53.133)
Yeah, you didn't have to be 21. They would, you know, you would get the stamp and the bracelet. But I would go there and I would dance my ass off. Oops, dance my butt off. And I was just in really great shape back then. And I would play tennis all the time. And I was really competitive. And then I don't know college it and I wasn't as Kim. I wasn't doing those things anymore.

Angela Haas (33:01.709)
I love it. That's all right.

Cassie Newell (33:21.538)
Yeah, I mean, I still love to dance and go out and do things, but I'm not as rigorous, obviously. And it's so funny when my husband and I were married, we like gained like 20 pounds first year of marriage and somebody said, what do you guys eat out all the time? And I said, no, I'm a really good cook. We are not this way because I don't know how to cook.

Angela Haas (33:47.39)
That's hilarious.

Cassie Newell (33:48.974)
It's one of those things and butch will go, yeah, and all of sudden she wanted to figure out how to decorate cakes. So who has to eat them? Me. And I was like, yeah, because you have to eat cake. mean, it's just, yeah. So, you know, kind of been up and down in my life. You can find all kinds of pictures where I'm super pudgy and then all of sudden I'm skinny and I don't know. I'm kind of in my pudgy phase now, but I'm kind of at this point in my life where I'm like, I'm I'm happy with it.

Angela Haas (34:00.217)
That's spousal abuse, but whatever. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (34:18.136)
I'd just like to be more active a little stronger. That'd be okay.

Angela Haas (34:18.465)
I that's where, yeah, yeah, I think a little healthier, active, stronger. I was a track, I don't want to say, I was a sprinter in high school. And so my junior, senior year, I was a state champion as well as a sprinter. And I was in killer shape then.

Cassie Newell (34:42.337)
Nice!

Angela Haas (34:46.425)
Then it dips like your first year of college, right? But then I transitioned from sprinting, which is difficult because when you're a runner, they measure you for something called fast twitch or slow twitch, like in your muscles. And I always had fast twitch. So I transitioned because I still wanted to compete. I still liked competing for things. So after college, I started doing half marathons and triathlons and

Cassie Newell (34:48.845)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (35:00.19)
yeah, your muscles. Muscle fibers.

Angela Haas (35:15.801)
I was in the best shape when I had something to train for, like a triathlon where you're swimming, you're running, you're biking. And I was in killer shape then. was lifting weights and then I don't know what happened. I think running takes such a toll on your body. So after a while, like I couldn't, man, it's just tough on my feet.

Cassie Newell (35:23.586)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (35:30.882)
Yeah

Cassie Newell (35:36.174)
You're

Angela Haas (35:40.279)
knees, you know, and then I just had to do different forms of exercise, then COVID hits and then I'm working from home or and, you know, it's a story, whatever.

Cassie Newell (35:49.548)
Yeah. And then the thing that you like to do outside of working is writing and that's pretty sedentary too. Yeah.

Angela Haas (35:56.245)
Yeah, so, but I'm aging myself. used to run with the massive CD Walkman. I had a cassette Walkman, but then when they came out with the CD ones, I would hold that thing. Like that thing was huge. And I would run with my little spongy headphones and had all kinds of mixed CDs that would get my pace down with each song. And those were the days. Now,

Cassie Newell (36:04.929)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (36:12.333)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (36:25.324)
I can tell you I've never.

Angela Haas (36:25.333)
As I spoke about in episode 14, I'm wearing elastic waist pants all the time.

Cassie Newell (36:30.272)
I've never been a runner. So I'm impressed. I'm always fascinated with people who can run big distances or short fast distances. Mine was can I get to the ball quick enough? You know, like, just when we would have to I mean, our coaches would always make us run and I hated it. I hated it. I never found purpose in and I never found like a runner's high. And I would try like the couch to fit 5k and I would try all these like

Angela Haas (36:41.215)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (36:57.678)
yeah.

Cassie Newell (36:59.864)
I would have these ideas that I could do it and I hated every second of it. It was just not for me. I am just not built to be a runner. But I respect runners so much and the fact that you did a half marathon, marathons, triathlons, I'm like, say what? That's crazy.

Angela Haas (37:09.721)
It's okay.

Angela Haas (37:16.703)
It's okay. I had no hand-eye coordination. So my coaches were like, well, okay, could you run from point A to B as fast as you can? And I was like, sure, I can do that. I can't shoot a basketball or play tennis, but I can go from point A to B. I can handle that. So good for you for playing a sport like tennis. That makes me jealous for sure.

Cassie Newell (37:29.868)
I played basketball and tennis. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (37:40.45)
Yeah, I don't, couldn't withstand it today. It would have to be lobbying kind of tennis. I'm really interested in learning pick a ball, but, and I, my husband bought me a lovely thing for my birthday and we need to get out and do it. And we still have yet to do it, but he played tennis too. So it was really fun in college because we would just get on the court and it was fun. Cheap date.

Angela Haas (37:46.679)
That's why there's pickleball and that.

Angela Haas (37:57.494)
Yes.

Angela Haas (38:06.103)
Yeah, yeah, you'll get out there for sure. So, well, friends, thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you're listening or watching the podcast. really helps us with visibility. Also, we'd love to hear from you.

Cassie Newell (38:12.631)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (38:28.087)
Reach out to us either website contact form or on YouTube and let us know. there something you want to learn more about? Something you want us to chat about? We're all ears, right? Next week, we are talking with guest Suzy Velory about writing that second book in the series.

Cassie Newell (38:41.443)
Yes.

Angela Haas (38:53.099)
And I think it's actually, I'm going to say something else. Next week, we're talking with guest Suzy Vadori about writing that second book in the series. So until then, keep writing, keep doing. We'll see you soon.