Episode 17: Navigating The Challenges of Book Two in a Series with Suzy Vadori

Angela Haas (00:01.516)
Welcome to episode 17. I'm Angela Haas and I'm here with my co-host Cassie Newell. And this month we're talking all about craft and the craft of writing. This episode we're talking about writing that second book in the series with our very special guest, Suzy Vadori Welcome Suzy. Thanks for stopping by.

Suzy Vadori (00:24.163)
Hi, thank you so much for having me on.

Angela Haas (00:28.27)
Suzy is a Calgary bestselling author of the Fountain series, The Fountain, The Westwoods, and Wall of Wishes. This fantastical series has received three Aurora nominations for best young adult novel. She is represented by Naomi Davis of Book Ends Literary Agency. And she specializes in breaking down complex writing concepts for newer writers into manageable steps to get

that book idea exploding in their minds onto the page in a way that'll make readers take notice. She works with both fiction and nonfiction writers in memoir, mystery, thriller, and a host of other genres. Suzy is an advanced certified book coach from Jenny Nash's Author Accelerator. So welcome Suzy and welcome again. I've already welcomed you.

Suzy Vadori (01:20.943)
Thank you.

Angela Haas (01:24.45)
Welcome again. And we're just kind of dive in. you say you specialize in breaking down concept, complex writing concepts for newer writers into manageable steps. Can you first speak about a little bit about that before we dive into all about writing book two?

Cassie Newell (01:25.339)
Ha ha ha.

Suzy Vadori (01:42.447)
Absolutely, absolutely. So I actually wrote The Fountain, which went on, or what the draft of what went on to become The Fountain, I'll be more specific there, on maternity leave with my third child. And I was a business executive. I worked as an executive in business for like 20 years. And I was like, okay, I knew I always wanted to write a book one day. I was really like crack at grammar and spelling. And I thought this is gonna be easy, right?

Angela Haas (02:00.558)
No.

Suzy Vadori (02:10.543)
And I want you guys, I'm looking at your faces now, because it's not easy. And I found it really difficult to find all the information. I had all the pieces, but nobody was sort of saying it in plain English that I could learn. And so if you'd have told me that at that time, my maternity leave, my daughter, she's turning 14 this summer. Yeah, so well, and I have an 18 year old as well and a 16 year old. So she was my third.

Angela Haas (02:33.467)
What? my gosh. Okay.

Suzy Vadori (02:39.727)
But yeah, so it was a long time ago, but if you'd have told me at that time that 14 years later, I'd be teaching this, I would have thought you were crazy, but it's just kind of how it worked out because what I did was exactly what I do in business, take an enormous amount of information and kind of break it down into rules that we can apply and use over and over and over again. And I found that people were asking for my help.

Cassie Newell (02:52.061)
great.

Angela Haas (03:02.602)
Wow.

Suzy Vadori (03:08.307)
and they found it really helpful and it turned into this amazing job as a book coach.

Cassie Newell (03:13.872)
I love it.

Angela Haas (03:15.47)
That's incredible. I, okay. First of all, you don't look old enough to have a 14 and 18 year old. This is like blowing my mind. I think you're going to say four and eight, but okay.

Suzy Vadori (03:20.705)
thank you. I'm just no, no, no, I'm turning 50 in about two months. So we're going to be doing a lot of celebrations around 50. So thank you. But yeah, second career for sure. Yeah. Gen X forever. Exactly.

Angela Haas (03:34.166)
Yay. Gen X forever. Okay, so let's talk about book two. I think it's a problem child. It is for me, but I feel like there's a lot of pressure on book two to a keep readers engaged in the series. But then I think the question is always how much do you do you summarize from book one? How much are you setting up for book three? So

Cassie Newell (03:39.249)
Yep, welcome to the club.

Suzy Vadori (03:42.382)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (04:02.988)
What are some just broken down steps of writing book two?

Suzy Vadori (04:07.503)
Absolutely. So when you suggested this topic for this podcast, I was like, my gosh, I have so much to say on this because you're right. It can be such a problem child. And again, you know, when you're first starting out, you don't know what you don't know. And book two feels like it's going to be so much easier. I thought it was going to be easier because you've already created the characters and the world. And then you sit down to write and you're like, no, I've already created the characters and the world. So what do I write about?

Angela Haas (04:25.581)
yeah.

Suzy Vadori (04:36.077)
Right? Like it's like you, you've already done that. And so this, there's this trap where writers fall into, which is what you were just asking about, like, how much do you summarize and how much do you do? And a lot of times we sit down and we start writing the same book. and it's like, and you're like, and this happened to the character and this happened to the character and you're retelling your own story because you love it so much and you want to make sure that your readers get it. Am I right? Yeah. Okay.

Angela Haas (04:40.91)
Mm-hmm, totally. Yeah, that's exactly what I did.

Cassie Newell (05:04.039)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (05:05.751)
So exactly. so there's a bunch of different things that we need to do to break this down. So you might be sorry that you asked this question, but I'm to break it down for you because when you think about it, I mean, I always like to flip writing rules and talk about your reader and what their experience is and making sure that their experience is like the best that it can possibly be. So you've actually got three kinds of readers who are going to pick up your book too. You've got your loyals.

They just finished book one and they're like, where's the next one? Right? Where's the next one? I'm going to read it right away. Or maybe they already have it on their bed stand waiting. Um, they're going to read it right away. So book one is really fresh in their minds. Then you have your sort of loyal, but, um, they read book one a while ago, right? And depending on how you've published, and we could talk about this because series and book two, um, there's different strategies depending on how you're publishing. And I can talk about that later.

But the second kind of reader is that one that had read book one, but maybe didn't like a while ago. They don't not going to remember everything about it. It's not so fresh. And then you've also got new readers, right? And that's a tough one because a lot of times we want the book to be able to stand alone. And no matter how you go about writing it, right, you're always going to get some people who pick up book two and start from there. And you don't want them to be completely lost, right?

Angela Haas (06:15.718)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (06:26.738)
Right.

Suzy Vadori (06:32.419)
So when you find yourself coming up against that moment where you're like, ooh, readers of book two, they need to know this other thing that happened to book one, stop and say, do your readers need this information in order to make sense of book two? And if the answer is no, just ditch it, ditch it. Like, don't remind them. It's not like this fun little Easter egg or whatever. It's not that much fun, like, especially for your loyals who just finished book one.

Angela Haas (06:50.062)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (06:52.7)
Mm-hmm.

Suzy Vadori (07:01.707)
If the answer is yes, they can't actually make sense of book two without that information, then we include it. But here's what I'll suggest that you do is you include that information, but you always include something new. So we're not just recapping what happened in book one. We're actually giving new information. And what that does is it, it gives a reminder or it tells people for the very first time, if they're the, you know, in that category three reader who's never read book.

Angela Haas (07:29.297)
Mm hmm.

Suzy Vadori (07:31.789)
So we're giving them the information that they need to understand what's happening in book two. Yes. for the loyals that don't really remember, we're reminding them, but for those who just finished book one and just picked up book two, they're going to be bored by your recap. So give them something new and keep it fresh. Right? So if you have to include it, do it, but make it new. And there's some suggestions, like there's a lot of things that you can do to make this new time has passed.

Cassie Newell (07:50.406)
I love that.

Angela Haas (07:53.974)
.

Suzy Vadori (07:58.915)
presumably since book one or whatever events or plot happened in book one. So has your character developed a new understanding of what happened or changed their mind about it? Have they gotten new information, right? Have they gleaned something new? You can flip this, right? Maybe they were really happy about something in the moment. And then when they think back a year later, they're like, wow, I was so naive. That was the worst thing that ever happened to me, right? Gives us something new. Something that you didn't have room for in book one, maybe.

Cassie Newell (08:22.749)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (08:25.749)
Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (08:28.811)
or and feel free to recap or summarize. This is a great place. mean, I'm all about the show. Don't tell, but this is a great place to tell. Keep it short and just like get through it.

Cassie Newell (08:37.798)
Yeah.

I love that. You could even have another character show their point of view of something that happened, right? Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (08:41.455)
Good tips.

Suzy Vadori (08:45.867)
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Add to it, give us a different perspective somehow, however you do that. Yeah, this rewards your loyal readers and makes it exciting and new for them. It's not just like, recap.

Angela Haas (09:00.638)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (09:00.733)
So I have a question. How much of a recap should you have though in book two for all of those readers? Like, are we talking 2 % of your entire book? Like, do you have kind of a makeup of what that might look like for people that are like, yeah, I get it, but how much?

Suzy Vadori (09:02.093)
Yeah, absolutely.

Suzy Vadori (09:22.669)
Yeah, I don't have a rule of thumb. mean, if you're putting me on this, I always like to answer it anyway. It's probably more than 2%. It's probably five, you know, if you had to pick, but it's not 30 % and it's not 10%. I mean, it's just too heavy, right? And the places where we need that are often in the grounding of scenes or somewhere new. So when we're going, you know, in the opening of the book, for example, we do need to give some context and

Cassie Newell (09:31.715)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (09:35.975)
Right.

Cassie Newell (09:49.853)
Right.

Suzy Vadori (09:52.451)
You know, another trip, there's lots of tricks to make book too fresh, but if you find you've already done the characters in the world, mix it up, right? Cassie was saying the perspective from a new character is amazing. I've done, I like to do different things for myself. When I write new books, I always take on a new technique just cause that keeps it interesting for me personally, cause I'm really a geek about writing technique. So.

Cassie Newell (10:00.242)
Mm.

Angela Haas (10:05.302)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (10:05.927)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (10:19.407)
but you can also write from a different character's perspective or include something different. But you can also move locations, right? That's a really common way to blow up the world or to increase your world and expand. If you've already explored one location, put them somewhere else and that automatically makes it feel fresh. Yeah, and then another one would be to...

Angela Haas (10:40.284)
Sure. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (10:42.461)
that's it.

Suzy Vadori (10:45.815)
change what the message is in the book. You know, if your first book is all about love conquers all and everything kind of points in that direction, maybe the next one is, you know, blood is thicker than water and it's more about family. and so even though they're the same events, you could have them actually be from a different perspective or highlighting different things. like to talk about this when I coach memoir because people can write more than one memoir about their life and they could even use the same events.

Cassie Newell (10:58.431)
yeah.

Suzy Vadori (11:15.151)
but highlight something different or a different takeaway or a different message that you want to convey. And it might touch on some of the same events that happened to you, but highlight something different. Keep it fresh.

Angela Haas (11:26.323)
Wow. Yeah, that's a good, that's a really good point because sometimes I think you get into this world where it's the same characters and setting and you're that is could be kind of a struggle. Cassie is writing

short story series and talk about your experience Cassie a little bit with your writing book two in that short story. What were the challenges you found? know, because I don't write short stories, so I know the challenges of writing a full length novel are, but what about writing short?

Cassie Newell (12:01.202)
Yeah.

Yeah, the difference with this was, just for context, in my young adult fantasy, it was my main character throughout the series, right? So, and a lot of found family. So I had opportunity there with other characters. In my short romance novellas that I've put together, it's four best friends, each friend has their own romance book, you know.

and they're going through this, you know, series. It's a series, they're interconnected, but they can be standalones. And what I found myself, you know, struggling with was, and Angela knows as my alpha reader, book two, was setting the stage. Had you never read book one because you were like, I don't like second chance, but I love enemies to lovers. So let me just pick this up.

Angela Haas (12:36.909)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (13:01.317)
So I had to ensure that A, my character voices of all four best friends, which are in everybody's book, you know, remain the same, there is some growth. And two, laying that foundation, that foundational piece, right, of who these people are, and not having the word and bandwidth to just expand all the time. for me,

That was a big struggle and I use dialogue and really short, compacted telling, as you said, because I didn't have the bandwidth for that. I needed, my goal was these are under two hour reads for busy romance readers. They're palate cleansers where potato chip reads. I'm okay with that. I love this. So I just was like, okay, there is going to be a certain amount of telling because my showing

Suzy Vadori (13:36.783)
app.

Suzy Vadori (13:45.741)
I love that.

Angela Haas (13:51.086)
.

Cassie Newell (13:56.857)
is my main event, right? My main characters of who the romance couple is. But I think, too, I had some outlines here. So I also am curious, you know, from your perspective, when we're talking series, how much do you outline when you're starting with book one, to book two and onward? Like, for me, I needed those beats.

Suzy Vadori (13:58.243)
Yeah. Absolutely.

Cassie Newell (14:24.495)
so that I could see how things would be carried through a little bit. I'm not a huge outliner. I'm a kind of a quilter person until I really get into it. But I do need goal posts. I'm a goal post person. So I'm just curious from your perspective and coaching people that are like, yes, this is going to be a series they know from the beginning. How do you coach them specifically in that carry through?

Suzy Vadori (14:32.959)
quilt or two.

Angela Haas (14:33.825)
Okay.

Suzy Vadori (14:52.739)
Yeah. So it speaks. Okay. So the first thing, what I would need to understand to answer the question is what is the writer's desire for publishing? Which, which path? Because it's different. and the reason I say this is because if you have your heart set on traditional and you're planning to be traditionally published, you could have an idea for a series, but really publishers,

Cassie Newell (14:53.297)
That's difficult.

Cassie Newell (15:04.87)
Mm.

Right.

Angela Haas (15:15.054)
So.

Suzy Vadori (15:21.103)
don't care what your idea for a is. I've had people on submission with one novel, like a standalone novel, and then they just get sent a contract for a five book deal, right? Or a three book deal, or a two book deal, or it's kind of like, you don't have a lot of control over it, and they only consider book one. So they want a lot of input, depending on how book one does, and the trends and everything else. They actually want to be involved in book two.

Cassie Newell (15:36.711)
Right.

Cassie Newell (15:46.877)
Sure.

Suzy Vadori (15:50.381)
So it's kind of a waste to be honest, if you are going that path to be planning an entire series, you're going to be disappointed. Yeah, it's going to be frustrating to you. And what ends up happening is, you know, people are trying to edit book two or book three and they haven't sold book one yet. And then they sell book one and the publisher gets involved and has different ideas. end up

Cassie Newell (16:01.072)
Disappointed. Yeah.

Angela Haas (16:02.737)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (16:16.153)
pulling forward things from book two and from book three that they've already written, which works out great, but then it messes up the whole arc and they have to kind of redo it. And there's also the timing thing, right? In traditional, we're looking at a year or 18 months between books. So you have that time and that space to do it. Now, if you are wanting to independently publish and you have this series idea, get it all done, right? Like get it all done because then you have

Cassie Newell (16:19.101)
Mmm.

Cassie Newell (16:23.805)
yeah.

Angela Haas (16:23.814)
Okay.

Suzy Vadori (16:46.017)
all these other options available to you. don't know Cassie, if this is what you're doing with your series, but you can do rapid release and you can do like, can, is that what you're doing? Yeah, I can see.

Cassie Newell (16:54.459)
Yeah. Yeah, I wrote it all last summer. And so it's been boom, boom,

Suzy Vadori (16:58.063)
Yeah, right. And so you have all these options and then that is such a great way to market it. So you kind of have to line it all up and get it done. You don't want to put one out there and then make people wait a year while you figure it out. So, so yeah, so yeah, well, even for novels, mean, especially if you're writing in romance or mystery that get consumed so quickly. Um, remember I was talking about those three types of readers. You're going to get a lot more of those readers who are like, okay,

Cassie Newell (17:09.265)
Right, not for short, maybe for a novel.

Suzy Vadori (17:25.123)
I'm done. Where's the next one? Where's the next one? Where's the next one? So it's a different strategy depending.

Angela Haas (17:28.823)
That's, yeah. That's what happened to me. I lost a lot of readers because I, it took me so long to put out book two just for.

Suzy Vadori (17:40.269)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (17:41.868)
you know, problems with finding the right editor and just, you know, different people I was working with not being able to follow through. And then I had to kind of rewrite the entire thing. So I was a two year lapse before I put out my book too. And I lost some momentum and I'm not sure how to get that back since I now writing romance accidentally in between all that, but

Suzy Vadori (17:56.291)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (18:09.654)
I think what I'm going to do is do that with books three, at least three and four, write those and release those together and then reboot the series. It's like kind of restart my marketing, relaunch it for free. Then there's four books to read through before I decide, is there two more? Is there one more? It gives me a little more time. back to, because I think Cassie did it brilliantly.

Suzy Vadori (18:19.033)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (18:39.178)
because it was short. And so she just did that rapid fire and people are just eating those books up because they can get the omnibus. But if I'm going to take a little bit more time getting my book three out, it goes back to how much do you we know how much maybe not to summarize, but how much do you set up like book two, there's like I said, there's so much pressure on it to really be

Cassie Newell (19:01.885)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (19:06.798)
that cornerstone of the series, I think, because you still want people to be interested in book three. But you don't want it weighted down either, you know.

Suzy Vadori (19:13.667)
Yeah. mean, yeah. I mean, planning it out, especially if you don't have other people's fingers in the pie publishers and other things giving their 10 cents, planning it all out in advance makes a lot of sense, but here's what I find that's really cool. And it's something that my brain does really well in a developmental edit. And especially when I work with, I'm working on a book three this week, I worked on a book five, last month with some, with some writers, but

Cassie Newell (19:16.881)
Mm. That's a question.

Suzy Vadori (19:43.759)
Sometimes those things just come, those things that you need to plan, especially in a mystery or in an adventure story, they just, those connections are there and your brain sort of makes them along the way. So watch for things. Yes, you can plan them out, but they also happen naturally, right? They also happen naturally. And if you stay close to your characters and you have, you know, really great editorial support, alpha readers, by the way, alpha readers are golds.

Cassie Newell (19:49.661)
Mm.

Suzy Vadori (20:11.727)
I'm so excited that you guys do that for one another and like lovely. I love that. But yeah, those people who really love your series will find those connections with you and then play them up. And that's really a cool thing for readers of your series to like see that continuity. And sometimes they're one, some of the coolest ones are ones that nobody set up and nobody planned and they were already there. Does that ever happen to you guys? I don't know.

Angela Haas (20:13.006)
So,

Yes. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (20:38.343)
bright.

Yes, definitely. I do have a question for you. Speaking of the setup for book two, what are your thoughts on cliffhangers? Because as a writer, I love them. As a reader, I hate them.

Suzy Vadori (20:43.287)
Yeah, it happens.

Angela Haas (20:45.592)
When has that happened, Cassie? When it tells when that has happened.

Suzy Vadori (20:49.401)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (21:00.291)
Yeah, again, I think it really, mean, again, I would need to understand what your publishing goals are, because if you're doing rapid release, cliffhangers are amazing. If you're 18 months, it's just going to piss them off. And you should really be wrapping everything up within that book. So a satisfying ending, we like to say this, and it's not fair. A great ending is something that is surprising yet inevitable. Right. That's the saying. It's surprising yet inevitable. It's almost impossible. Right.

Cassie Newell (21:06.567)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (21:26.616)
Right.

Suzy Vadori (21:29.827)
But you need to be wrapping up all of those threads, even if you wrap them up wrong. And this is what I like to tell readers that say, yeah, that writers that are like, my gosh, like it's like the happily ever after for now in a romance that trope, right? Like it's like, it's like, you need to make them feel satisfied, even if you're going to rip the rug out from under them in book two and blow it up, make them think it feels good. So there's times when writers fight me on it and say, I can't, I can't.

Cassie Newell (21:35.215)
Ooh, I love that!

Angela Haas (21:36.846)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (21:42.747)
Yeah, I love that.

Cassie Newell (21:52.25)
I love that.

Suzy Vadori (21:57.133)
reveal this because this is a big part of book two. The answer is always to give them something to make their brains go like, I like this. It feels good. You know, it's a day new mall, which is a term. Yeah. Satisfying ending for now. Happily ever after for now. Right. So try to do that.

Cassie Newell (22:03.067)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (22:08.135)
satisfying ending for now.

Cassie Newell (22:13.271)
Right. I love those. I love the type of hooks that the story has ended on the main plot, right? However, they dangle the fruit of what's to come, and then kind of leave you hanging for more. I mean, Rebecca Yaros. Anyway, however, now I've got to wait like, you know, 18 months for the next one. But I just, I love those kind of

Suzy Vadori (22:31.769)
Yeah, right?

Angela Haas (22:32.014)
Okay.

Suzy Vadori (22:36.217)
So, yeah.

Cassie Newell (22:42.205)
Thanks more so in kind of that epic series, like Angela's, know, sci fi series is kind of like that. I wouldn't say my romance is anything like that, because they're very individualized stories. But I hook you with some knowledge of, oh, the next friend's book is this. This is what's coming. I try to a little bit. I give you a sneak peek of the first chapter, you know, that kind of stuff from a marketing perspective, indie wise.

Suzy Vadori (22:56.793)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (23:12.081)
But traditional, I see that more and more, where they kind of lean into what it could be in the second book. And half the time, I think I know what it's going to be. And it's never what I thought it was going to be usually. But I'm curious as to your thoughts on that.

Suzy Vadori (23:24.291)
Yeah. If, yeah, well, if you think about it, I mean, I like to flip it in readers and, you know, we've also got plot versus character driven, right? So if you think about it, a cliffhanger is kind of a plot thing, right? Like what's gonna happen next, but if you think about the character arc, that's what we need to wrap up.

Angela Haas (23:29.134)
.

Cassie Newell (23:35.277)
Mm. Right.

Cassie Newell (23:41.319)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (23:47.373)
because we've got that sort of iconic opening scene. I love to teach using the Cinderella story. I'm not the only one who does it, but it's because everybody knows it. Although kids now don't know that, by the way, I teach a lot of kids as well in schools, they tour. They don't know the Cinderella story. They consume too much media and they don't have the classics. But yeah, if you think about the iconic moment at the beginning, she's down scrubbing the floors, right? We have that entry, this is where she is.

Angela Haas (24:02.794)
That's crazy.

Suzy Vadori (24:16.781)
And then that iconic moment at the end of the Cinderella story where she's coming down the stairs. Well, the story's already over. So why do we go to the wedding? We go to the wedding because it's that dating mall. It's the wrap up. We need to see the new normal. And there's actually a lot of things actually in that imagery. So in the first one, she's on the floor lowly. The second one, it's always her coming down the stairs. She's above you. There's a whole bunch of things, right? She's wearing brown. She's wearing white. She's like the all the things.

Cassie Newell (24:42.053)
interest. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (24:45.945)
So really at the end of the story, what we need to see is what is the new normal? So if you think about the character arc in a story and you say, well, your character goes from X to Y, from rags to riches, from whatever it is, right? Then show us a scene where we know what that new normal is. We may not know how they're going to act in book two, book three, book four, book five, but we know at the end that they've kind of wrapped up and that they have a new equilibrium and the new way of

being and that's that their character arc gets wrapped up even if all the plot stuff isn't.

Cassie Newell (25:22.224)
I like.

Angela Haas (25:22.538)
That is so, I love that because in my CliftonStrengths, my number one is strategic. And so sometimes I'm so focused on the plot and how that's all those loose ends suffering up. I mean, I do finish my character arcs because mine are more like origin stories for each superhero. You meet each one in each book, a new one in a connected universe. And then there's a big battle at the end when they all come together.

Suzy Vadori (25:30.137)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (25:52.673)
I love that.

Angela Haas (25:52.674)
But making sure that the character fulfilled their destiny, even if there's like this dangling plot thing over there, that will still satisfy readers. that is something that I'm gonna like, that's gonna stick in my mind now. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (26:05.625)
Absolutely.

Cassie Newell (26:06.001)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (26:08.803)
Yeah. And sometimes we need another scene. Like it's not enough to just say, here's all the answers. It's like, want to like, it's not, not an epilogue. Like don't, I'm not throwing out dirty words here, but it's this moment, right? It's this moment. Epilogue actually in romance is, is very acceptable and very usual. but, but that's this, the thought of the Dainty Mom, which is what used to be on Story Mountain, the last thing. And now they've dumbed it down in schools and they just call it the ending.

Angela Haas (26:19.67)
Right.

Cassie Newell (26:27.261)
common.

Suzy Vadori (26:37.805)
Right. But I think that there's something beyond the ending, which is like, okay, everything's kind of wrapped up and now we just need to see what's the new normal. And if you think of it that way, that's super satisfying to readers. And maybe, you know, if you do an epilogue, what's the normal way for, you know, 10 years from now or a year from now or whatever you end up doing, then that's something different. But yeah, letting us sit in that reality and know that our character is okay, whatever that is.

Cassie Newell (26:51.964)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (27:06.201)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (27:06.711)
And or not okay if it's an unhappy ending. Let us understand that.

Cassie Newell (27:09.297)
Right. I love that.

Angela Haas (27:11.574)
Right. What do you think about? I've been seeing a lot on Book talk and you know, just IG, you know, about readers wanting recaps now, not a prologue. They want a summary in the beginning of the book for, you know, certain genres. But if there's a series and that just blew my mind because that's like the opposite of

Suzy Vadori (27:28.717)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (27:38.083)
That's lazy.

Angela Haas (27:40.842)
everything but these are readers they're out there and they're and then when you read the comments of those influencers posting that there's so many like yeah why don't authors do this and i'm like man i never never occur to me i don't know what you're

Suzy Vadori (27:55.257)
They don't know what they're asking for would actually be incredibly boring. It's one of those things where, you know, I'm looking at a car and I'm making suggestions about how they should change the design, but I know nothing about it. But I think I want it. I don't know. I think that if you were gonna do that, you could try it. But again, the same rules apply. Don't just recap it, make it fresh. Like if you're gonna recap it, recap it from your character a year later.

Angela Haas (27:59.775)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (28:00.754)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (28:24.985)
who's gone another trip around the sun and has a different opinion on it, right? Make it fresh. I never wanna do the same thing, right? That feels yuck.

Cassie Newell (28:29.613)
I love that. Yeah.

Angela Haas (28:31.358)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (28:34.877)
And my marketing brain kicks in and I'm like, you want to recap? Just speed read through it real quick. You know, the last half of the book, which seems like a no-no, but if you've read it, you would know, you know, get the, get the gist at the end.

Angela Haas (28:36.238)
Okay.

Suzy Vadori (28:40.931)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (28:48.719)
Yeah, enjoy it again. Exactly. think, you know, and reader expectations as you build a following reader expectations come into this too. think Angela, you were saying, you know, you're maybe changing genres as you write and changing things. And you're like, how do I get back? And how do I make sure that I was just thinking about this, um, experience that I had in book two where, actually I think I have it with me, but when I wrote the Westwoods, so I, one of the things that I really wanted to be fresh is

These books are young adults, they're magical realism, and they do have romance in them, or book one had romance in it. And when I wrote this book, I sent it out to my beta readers and I sent it out to, I had seven adults read it and seven teens. And I asked pretty general questions to my beta readers. I don't want them to tell me exactly. I don't want them to give me new design ideas for a car when they don't really know.

Angela Haas (29:37.714)
.

Suzy Vadori (29:45.677)
I just want them to react to the book. So my questions are really basic. Like what was your favorite scene and what was your least favorite scene and your favorite character and your least favorite? Why? Like how did you react to this story? And it was this weird thing that happened where all of the adults, all seven of them said that their favorite scene was also my favorite scene. It was like heart wrenching and like all of these things. And to a T all seven kids, teens said that was their least favorite scene. And some of them said,

It was so hard that they had to put the book down and they almost did go back. And I was like, well, that was brilliant writing, but, but it wasn't what the readers wanted. And I realized that I'd set this expectation in book one, then I write romance that there would be romance. And the scene that they hated was a breakup. It was a breakup and they didn't want it. They couldn't do it. And they were so, their tender little hearts were just, and the adults were like, yeah.

Angela Haas (30:20.848)
my.

Okay. God, we're so jaded. We are so jaded!

Cassie Newell (30:32.797)
Suzy Vadori (30:44.141)
that's what a breakup feels like. And the kids were like, what? Yeah, it was awesome. And I had to sit with it. And it was a terrible realization that I'd set up this, but it was great. Like, thank goodness for those beta readers and my career, because I didn't make a fatal mistake, which was, you know, bring these readers along that have an expectation of what a Suzy Vadori young adult magical realism novel is.

Cassie Newell (30:51.089)
love it.

Suzy Vadori (31:11.223)
and then rip the rug out from under them, right? So you gotta be careful when you're mixing it up that you bring your readers along for the ride. And so what I ended up doing was I made an unrequited relationship and so they didn't break up because they never got together. But I actually had to highlight five chapters in my manuscript and hit delete. Actually it was cut and then I pasted it somewhere else and it was terrible, but it was great.

Angela Haas (31:28.611)
Okay.

Angela Haas (31:34.719)
Whoa.

Suzy Vadori (31:40.879)
And I sent it back to those readers and they said, thank you. Right? Like they just were not, they were not ready for what I had on my shelf. So it's a little too dark. but yeah, so you can mix things up, but also pay attention to what you've built. Right? You know, this, if you're writing different genres, you've got to kind of attract a new audience to that. Right. So especially within a series.

Cassie Newell (31:50.909)
I

Angela Haas (31:52.938)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (32:01.1)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (32:01.106)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (32:04.733)
Yeah. I'm sorry, I'm laughing because I did a very similar thing in my young adult fantasy. But instead of them breaking up, he walks away in book two, and you don't know what's happening. So in book three, he's not there for a good chunk, which was, I felt very bold at the time, because that's not what you're told to do. But one of our previous guests said, if you know the rules, break them. So I broke them. But

Angela Haas (32:04.77)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (32:09.379)
Yeah, right?

Suzy Vadori (32:15.727)
Mmm.

Suzy Vadori (32:26.126)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (32:28.242)
.

Cassie Newell (32:33.349)
I have this really great aspect where she's like, very in his face, which happens so much here where people ghost you because they're trying to deal with something, but they're non-communitive. so, and I thought it was a little hard. And at the time I had teenage alpha readers and they were like, this is awesome. As a girl, I've always wanted to yell at some guy's face like this.

Suzy Vadori (32:57.529)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (33:01.595)
who ghosted me, you know, but you half the time you never see them again, what have you. But it was really interesting because they didn't like the idea of them breaking up permanently. And I, could only lead to it. So yeah.

Suzy Vadori (33:15.299)
Yeah, it's true. I mean, there is a rule in, in romantic relationships that they stay within each other's sphere, right? But it's changing. so I gotta tell you, I have a book, that I wrote that isn't published. and yeah, and it was, it got a revise and resubmit five years ago now, five years ago. So during the pandemic, I got a revise and resubmit because

Cassie Newell (33:22.905)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Angela Haas (33:29.122)
Ooh.

Cassie Newell (33:37.152)
wow.

Suzy Vadori (33:41.579)
one of the germs for that story was that idea of not ghosting exactly, but that they were together, but, but they were apart and they didn't communicate and that was okay. and they still knew that each other was there and it was just like this thing. It's actually why I wrote the book. And, because it was a, it was a major publisher that gave me the revise and resubmit. And they said, we want them the romance. And it was a romance in print to be fair.

Angela Haas (33:47.762)
.

Suzy Vadori (34:09.367)
It's a fantasy book, but a romance was interested in it. And they said, you know, they have to be together. And I tried to do that revise and resmit and I decided not to do it. I still haven't done it because I just, it was part of it. But what's happened in the meantime is that role has relaxed a lot with Romanticie and what's happening in there. And one of my, one of my good friends, Danielle Al Jensen, she is a local writer here and also

Angela Haas (34:13.319)
gotcha.

Suzy Vadori (34:36.943)
a really huge romantic writer. And she does that in her books and she can do it. She's just like, no, this is what I'm doing. And they are going gangbusters, right? Where the protagonists are not, or the love interests are apart. And I just, I don't know, maybe the world is ready for that book now. I'll have to talk to my agent and see, yeah, be like, hey, the rules have changed.

Cassie Newell (34:45.871)
Eat it up.

Angela Haas (34:46.244)
Wow. Hmm.

Cassie Newell (34:57.233)
Yeah, you should resubmit and try. I mean, you could definitely compare fourth wing to that too. I mean, there's so many right now that they're not in the same space. Who knows, you know, and they're ending that way too, which is always that no, no to, you know, so I think it's, really interesting when you start to see the mainstream traditional publishers.

Suzy Vadori (35:03.789)
Yeah, totally.

Suzy Vadori (35:11.875)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (35:15.78)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (35:21.582)
It's hard to keep up sometimes. I mean, it's hard to, and that's why I think you just, you've got to just do what feels right for you. But.

Cassie Newell (35:24.529)
start to take risks. You're kind of like, hallelujah. Or they're finally seeing how indie authors are doing it and seeing how readers are responding. So it's always changing. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (35:33.753)
Yeah. Yeah, hey, new idea.

Cassie Newell (35:41.594)
Yeah, it is.

Angela Haas (35:49.182)
Back to specifically thinking about book two, what do you feel like people get wrong? I don't want to say wrong. It's not bad. It's like where do people struggle and then that might make their lives harder for the rest of series or where are the specific struggles just in book two? Do you see?

Suzy Vadori (36:09.123)
Yeah, I think, I mean, if you look at people who love to outline, not us, Cassie, necessarily. I actually love to outline. teach, and Cassie is also an author accelerator coach. And so you're familiar with Jenny Nash's Inside Outline, which I like to call the outline for Pantsers because, you know, it's three pages. Even if you've already written the book, I'm like,

Angela Haas (36:17.314)
me.

Cassie Newell (36:18.833)
I do, but I don't.

Cassie Newell (36:28.349)
Inside Out.

Yep, I love it.

Suzy Vadori (36:37.923)
spend an hour and a half and put down what you know, like don't resist this so hard, but it's short enough that you can move it around. And one thing that I see writers struggle with a lot is that they do this for book one and it works. And then they outline book two and they go to write it they don't have enough because they already have the characters and they already have the world. And so your outline is very different for book two. find you actually need a lot more than you do in book.

Cassie Newell (36:41.479)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (36:59.965)
Suzy Vadori (37:07.213)
because that a lot of those dots are sort of filled in already. And that's where the introduce a new, you know, if you're doing magic, introduce a new kind of magic, introduce a new location, introduce a new character, a new love, a new stage of life, a new family member, introduce something new that's going to fill in that gap. Because yeah, one of the biggest problems that I see reader or writer struggle with is they do the same outlining process and they end up with a book that's way too short.

and then they're like, woo, how did this like, they come to me and they're like, what happened? I'm like, yeah, this happens, right. this happens. And so people get really succinct and they, they start to try to fill it in with other things, but you just have to create, you almost need like three times as much in your outline. You need to create more stuff. If that makes sense.

Cassie Newell (37:58.909)
Interesting. I love that.

Angela Haas (38:01.358)
Okay, yeah, that does make sense. It does. And I think, although depending on your genre, I guess, you if you're writing just romance, you know, you can bring in new characters. For me writing the sci fi, you know, you can bring in new worlds and, you know, new technology. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (38:17.453)
New technology, new political systems, new or a different era, right? Like something, a change in leadership can turn a science fiction on its head. Yeah, lots of things. Absolutely. Throw a monkey, I'm the queen of the monkey wrench. Lots of monkey wrenches. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (38:21.533)
Mm.

Cassie Newell (38:25.799)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (38:25.975)
Right.

Cassie Newell (38:28.547)
Yeah, throw a monkey wrench in.

Angela Haas (38:31.382)
Yes. my other question deals with marketing, the dreaded marketing, because I run into issues in standalones. don't think Cassie, this wasn't a problem for you because you rapid it released. So your marketing, you did it really well. Where you just like, you had it all planned out or this books out, but then you're already promoting the next one. So.

Cassie Newell (38:34.449)
Yeah, I love those.

Suzy Vadori (38:41.348)
Yes.

Angela Haas (39:01.144)
Do feel like your marketing for that series was easier because you were rapid releasing? Okay.

Cassie Newell (39:06.319)
No, I don't think it was easier. I think it's just busier. Like, it's always go, go, go. But I'm also getting that pushback of although you're marketing, for example, book four, really all your ad dollars and things are for book one, because you're wanting read through and I'm like, yes, but they're standalone. So again, I bucked the system and I did something for book two. And I was told

Angela Haas (39:13.506)
Right.

Cassie Newell (39:36.123)
by some professionals and coaches like really just solidly do book one, but I was surprised at how much book two sold. And I was like, I think my marketing is a little different because it's interconnected. If you like certain tropes, you may only pick up one book. You you may not like the other tropes that are represented because I'm very clear on what they are. So I don't know about that, but I...

I do understand the struggle because I was later in book two on my young adult fantasy and trying to get that carry through of readership. So they're just such different animals. And I'm also kind of planning my marketing to continue to stretch because my plan is also different formats. So it's all been ebook. Now I'm going to go into print and then I'm going into audio.

So I've got like this carry through to carry me through for the next short in the same town. So I have this huge umbrella scheme of marketing. That's a little different that I don't think a lot of people when you just start writing, this is definitely more a junior senior year type moment of breaking down the industry and the genre for what I'm marketing to find my little feet or, or

Angela Haas (40:47.249)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (40:59.515)
or braces under the umbrella for my planning purposes. I don't think as a brand new writer, you think so much about the marketing pieces and all that stuff.

Angela Haas (41:06.286)
right.

Suzy Vadori (41:10.242)
No, we think that we write the book and then people will just find it, right? Like, isn't that how it works?

Cassie Newell (41:14.703)
Yeah, so I took a change and I was like, okay, I want to market, but I also like writing short. And I was testing it out. And I was like, I think I'm good at this. And I like the immediacy of this. And let's see what happens. You know? So I don't know, I think to Angela's point,

Suzy Vadori (41:33.199)
Absolutely.

Cassie Newell (41:38.757)
Yeah, let's talk about though a longer novel set when you're know you're not rapid releasing when you know, like you've got so many books. It's, it's one of those things I think that isn't talked about very much outside of just constantly push book one. And I don't know that that's the right answer. I mean, I'm very curious as to your thoughts on that.

Angela Haas (41:41.262)
you

Suzy Vadori (42:00.995)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, it sounds like you've got a ton of things in place, which is a lot more than many authors do, which is probably why your series is and your books are doing well. every series is a little bit different and every author is going to be different. There's no cookie cutter strategy. However, there is the adage, nothing sells backlist like frontlist. So keep publishing, right? Like nothing sells backlist like frontlist. keep, you know,

Cassie Newell (42:08.603)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (42:27.037)
Mmm.

Suzy Vadori (42:30.847)
And it's true. And the more that you have, especially if they are grouped, not necessarily in the same series, but in the same genre or the same readership, that's an advantage really. Doesn't mean that you can't do it the other way, Angela. You can, absolutely. But it's definitely an advantage because you gain momentum. But it also sounds like you've done some things right in that, yes, traditionally, if you have a linear series,

Cassie Newell (42:41.917)
Right.

Angela Haas (42:45.316)
Right.

Suzy Vadori (42:59.021)
and you must read them in order, then promoting book one makes a lot of sense. Maybe we're doing a 99 cents or maybe it's free or maybe it's in KU or something to pull people through the series. But because you have standalone novels with different tropes and different characters and different things happening, what you've actually done, whether you meant to do this or not, is you actually have multiple entry points into your series.

Cassie Newell (43:06.002)
Right.

Cassie Newell (43:24.658)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (43:25.271)
And so you are not restricted the way that you would be if you had a book series that doesn't make sense out of order. So it's actually really smart. So if you can do that and you can write, like you did something really smart because it gives you. But that's what I'm saying. Maybe you didn't do it on purpose, but you'll see there's authors out there that have series. And we saw this a lot during the pandemic, actually, because, and I mean, I write young adults, I coach all kinds of things, but.

Cassie Newell (43:32.412)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (43:38.811)
Well, thank you. I don't know that I did that on purpose.

Angela Haas (43:39.572)
You

Suzy Vadori (43:53.879)
A lot of my examples are from my own experience and my colleagues. But yeah, especially in genres where paper books were a thing or buying them in bookstores were a bigger thing, which young adult was heavier into that than some of the other genres. Some of their series has died because the bookstores were closed and they released something and then they killed them or whatever. And what I watched some of my really smart colleagues do was exactly what you did.

Angela Haas (44:04.686)
Mm-hmm.

Suzy Vadori (44:22.477)
which is create a new entry point to their series, a prequel or another companion novel or something else that could be fresh and new. Nothing sells backless like frontless. So a new book, but a different way to get them in that isn't book one. And so there's some really cool things that you can do there if you do it deliberately. Yeah. I could geek out about marketing all day, by the way. my degree is in marketing and that was, that was my former. Yeah.

Angela Haas (44:27.054)
gosh, that's like my worst.

Cassie Newell (44:41.788)
Yeah, I love-

Cassie Newell (44:49.201)
getting more and more excited. When Angela and I first started talking about marketing, we were both like, you know, kill me now. But now I get kind of more excited about it. I don't, I don't love all the avenues that that make it difficult to know which path sometimes. But I also think you really have to study your genre down to your sub genre, and really decide

what road you'll follow, what one you're going to try to veer off of to make it for you. Or, you know, I think it's just one of those things that can be a little elusive until you get more experience. It's it's really quite difficult.

Suzy Vadori (45:29.313)
It can, and it's scary. It's scary for a lot of writers who say, well, I'm not good at it. Or they come to me and say, but Suzy, I don't want to speak on stages and do conferences and public speak and have a podcast. like, they're like hard pass. And I'm like, you don't have to. There are lots and lots of different ways that you can approach marketing. And like you said, Cassie, which ones light you up and which ones interest you, because if what you're doing is, you know, bundling or

Cassie Newell (45:40.902)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (45:45.007)
Yeah, you don't have to. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (45:58.709)
or understanding the algorithm and running ads and that's one way to do things. And if you're interested in that, cool, that's all you need to do. But there's other ways to promote your books too. And you can't do them all and you're not expected to do them all. Try a few things, but then go all in on one thing and do that. Do it consistently and keep writing, because otherwise you'll spend all day long marketing and you won't have that front list to sell your back list.

Cassie Newell (46:12.507)
Right.

Cassie Newell (46:28.081)
Yeah, that's really good point.

Angela Haas (46:29.206)
So what's the one thing then just to kind of wrap up and you know, what's the one if people could only choose one thing, what do you feel like is more is bringing more traction right now as far as marketing wise? Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (46:44.504)
In marketing?

Again, I mean, to pick one thing, it depends on the writer. Find your people. What your one thing should be is finding and building a community, whatever that means. Whether that's readership that already exists, so Cassie, it sounds like if you're running ads, you're going after readership that already exists. That's awesome, tap into that. But also build that. How do you make them your own? Do you have a newsletter? Do you have this podcast? Do you have ways?

Angela Haas (46:51.146)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (47:15.309)
that you're creating that community and bringing them in so that they will be waiting. And it's not random and you're, you know, once you find them with an ad, you don't have to find them again with an ad because they're going to get that announcement somehow, somewhere that you have a new book, right? So, so it's, you know, it's, how do you find them? But then how do you just nurture them? How do you, I mean, the reason that we write books in the first place, tell me if you guys are not on this spectrum, but most writers,

Cassie Newell (47:29.554)
Right.

Angela Haas (47:42.082)
Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (47:43.565)
Write books because they want to have a deep conversation with the world. They want to start a conversation. We can say, I write for myself. It's a lie. Nobody would go through this pain. If you never cared if anybody read it, I don't believe you just admit it. Right. Right. Because it's a lie. you know, and when we can admit that to ourselves, we're trying to start a conversation with the world. And so if you think of marketing, I mean, yes, your book, but also just

Cassie Newell (47:48.541)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (47:49.356)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (47:58.737)
It's a lot.

Suzy Vadori (48:12.855)
as humans? How do you want to have that conversation? Do you want to be a public speaker like I do? Or do you want to write and blog and interact via writing is fine. You don't even have to show your face, But you do have to connect and you do have to make that your own because otherwise people won't find it. And that's all marketing really is.

Angela Haas (48:18.958)
That's really, that's a great way to, that's something great to end on because, you know, finding your people, making it your own and making your, finding a way to connect the way you want to.

Suzy Vadori (48:49.081)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (48:49.302)
That's, that is the essence of marketing that actually makes me not hate it as much. thank you. I know.

Suzy Vadori (48:54.935)
Yay! We shouldn't hate marketing. It's just, it's like, we already want that conversation. So how do you want to have it and where is it natural to you and where can you be consistent? So that's the other thing I would say. Where do you want to show up and what can you do day in, day out, day in, day out, day in, day out? Because that's what's going to work. It takes time. And people will say to me, okay, other than you've written a newsletter every week for five years,

Angela Haas (49:08.268)
That's the key.

Angela Haas (49:14.348)
Yeah, that yeah. Yeah.

Suzy Vadori (49:22.723)
What's the one thing that made your career take off? like, that was it. That was it. And if you don't want to do it, pick something else, but you got to do something. can't just like, there's no magic bullet, right?

Angela Haas (49:27.442)
Wow.

Cassie Newell (49:32.178)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Angela Haas (49:34.811)
Yeah, wish there was but I think consistency is the other takeaway because that's just my I go in these little spurts but I just you know for now my goal is I'm gonna keep writing and keep publishing books and and do what I can to have like the minimum presence in marketing and then because I just don't have the bandwidth to do so much marketing I've got a you know, I've got

Suzy Vadori (49:49.881)
Yes.

Suzy Vadori (50:01.901)
You've got this podcast, you're showing up and that's maybe all you need to do. You've got one thing that's easy. Yeah, you've got one thing that's easy. You've got a partner that you guys love to chit chat about. Like this is what it's about. doesn't have, there's no like shoulds here. You shouldn't have to do that. Marketing is about doing the thing that you like, which maybe is this podcast and showing up and doing it over and over again. And in a year's time,

Angela Haas (50:03.054)
The basics. Yeah, yeah.

Angela Haas (50:08.618)
Okay, cool. I can do this.

Suzy Vadori (50:30.905)
You're gonna have like so many episodes and they're gonna reach so many readers and you're gonna be surprised.

Cassie Newell (50:37.373)
Well, we just need to hire you as our cheerleader from now on.

Suzy Vadori (50:39.375)
Yeah, it's part of being a book coach. I literally am a cheerleader, but I believe it. It's not like I'm not blowing smoke, right? Like I've seen it happen for so many writers and it's, there's no one way you just have to follow. Like we are being called to do something really hard and really weird. I like writing these things and yeah, so I'm here for it.

Angela Haas (50:39.747)
Yeah, can you just?

Cassie Newell (50:48.444)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (51:00.188)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (51:06.026)
Okay, well, where can people find you so that you can cheer on other people? Where can they connect with you?

Suzy Vadori (51:11.631)
Absolutely. So the best place to find everything is my website, suzyvadori.com. You can hop on my weekly newsletter where I share behind the scenes stuff. I share craft tips like we talked about today, but also behind the scenes stuff on what it's like to be a writer. And I bring in real life writers that I work with who share that stuff. And also I do have a podcast. It's Show Don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori and

It's really, again, it's about craft, but it's also about the real like skinny on what it is to be a writer. And I try to give as many straight goods because when I came to this space, it was so hard to find information. And I just want you guys to have it all. Go do the work, go do your thing and then build your creative life, right? It's just that easy. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (52:01.199)
I love it.

Angela Haas (52:01.613)
That's so great. Thank you. Thanks for all you do for writers. That is just so meaningful. But now you know what's happening. Table topics. Okay. Yes.

Cassie Newell (52:04.753)
Yeah, thank you.

Suzy Vadori (52:08.707)
Yeah. right. Table topics. No, I did not get this in advance. I hope it's a good.

Angela Haas (52:16.078)
It is. I think it is. Well, it's yeah. Okay. What do you do that's bad for your health?

Cassie Newell (52:20.423)
We always do it impromptu, so.

Suzy Vadori (52:27.257)
What do I do that's bad for my health? Honestly, read.

Angela Haas (52:29.166)
I'm

Angela Haas (52:37.826)
That's good for your health!

Suzy Vadori (52:38.647)
Maybe an unpopular thing. I mean, I read so much for work and I get like, I read so quickly, not when I'm editing, obviously I read slower, but when I read for pleasure that I actually have to take breaks from pleasure reading because I have only so much that my brain can take. And that's really hard for me to stop. yeah, reading sometimes can be bad for your health if you do as much as I do because it's just like, I can't put it down. And it's like, what's going to happen?

Angela Haas (53:04.226)
gosh. Okay. All right. That's good advice. That's different from mine. But Cassie, what's...

Suzy Vadori (53:07.787)
And I love it, but it can be bad too. Gotta take a break sometimes.

Cassie Newell (53:20.231)
gonna say because I don't write full-time, I work full-time as well, I think my bad habit is sitting on my high knee all day. I am at a desk all the time and even have a Vera desk where you can lift it up and stand but my problem is is I don't use it very often and

Suzy Vadori (53:29.903)
me

Angela Haas (53:40.974)
.

Cassie Newell (53:43.845)
I find that if I'm running a meeting or talking, it's difficult for me to stand and do that. I feel like I need to sit. Sometimes when I'm drafting or doing like, my gosh, dictation. can definitely walk and talk and chew gum and pat my head and rub my stomach at the same time. But like when I'm trying to like figure something out or like complete tasks that are very computer oriented.

Yeah, me on my butt a lot. Like, it's not good for your health. You must stand, you must walk all the things. And then I find myself at the end of the day, just so mentally drained that I don't have the energy to, you know, be more physically active. So yeah, when you are chained to your desk a little bit more often than not, it's probably not that healthy.

Angela Haas (54:36.906)
We're gonna yeah, yeah

Suzy Vadori (54:37.422)
I feel you.

Angela Haas (54:40.814)
Mine is my love affair with potatoes in all forms. I can't cut potatoes out. Mostly, so I have celiac. This is my excuse and it works. But I have celiac so I can't eat wheat and when you have like celiac, your digestion is wiped out. So I can't eat like healthy things sometimes like

Suzy Vadori (54:46.415)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (55:08.182)
I can't have almonds or other nuts or things with seeds. can't do chia seeds and flax and I can't eat spinach or anything that's just really tough on you. So when like it's it's like right now is starting to happen. Like I get the four o'clock craving and I just want that crunchy saltiness. And yeah, so I got it. Technically.

Suzy Vadori (55:29.743)
you

Cassie Newell (55:32.327)
Wait, and this is bad for you how?

Angela Haas (55:37.306)
Eating potato chips every day? Probably not. Well, anything. Like even like I love hash browns in the morning. When I go out to restaurant, I'm like, I want the extra side of potatoes. Like I just love potatoes always.

Suzy Vadori (55:37.668)
I mean potato chips or potatoes? Was it potato chips or potatoes?

Mmm.

Suzy Vadori (55:51.919)
I'm making shepherd's pie for dinner for my family tonight. So I'm about to make a lot of potatoes. I'll send you some in the mail.

Angela Haas (55:55.234)
great. I want that. Yeah, I want it all of it. And I'm just part my. Okay. My inner 12 year old is like, I don't want to cut out. I have to cut out so much with the celiac. Just let me have that. So yeah, that's bad for you. I gotta work out more. We got to move more. But anyway, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom. I really think

Cassie Newell (55:55.356)
Yum.

Cassie Newell (56:11.485)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (56:16.059)
Yes. Yes. Thank you.

Suzy Vadori (56:16.921)
Okay.

Suzy Vadori (56:21.273)
Thank you.

Angela Haas (56:25.506)
talking about that second book is so important. Listeners, don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you listen to the podcast. It really helps us with visibility. And let us know what topics you want to hear. We have different ways you can contact us and we always love to hear from you. Next week, we are talking with the amazing Paula Judith Johnson. We're going to do a deep.

dive into everything romance. So stay tuned for that. That's going to be wonderful. Until then, keep writing, keep doing, and we'll see you soon.