Episode 18: Crafting Love Stories with Paula Judith Johnson

Angela Haas (00:17)
Welcome to episode 18. I'm Angela Haas and I'm here with my co-host Cassie Newell and this month it's all about craft. This episode we're doing a romance deep dive with one of my favorites Paula Judith Johnson. Paula Judith Johnson is an award-winning author of steamy romance novels, Amazon best-selling author, and hostess of

the Writing Romance Mastery Summits, where you can learn about writing, publishing, and marketing your romance novels. Between the years of 2021 and 2023, she mentored new romance authors through the Romance Writers of America RAMP program. Paula Judith is also the creator of the Immersive Seductive Storylines course.

and coaching program for romance authors. Welcome Paula Judith.

Paula Judith Johnson (01:18)
Well, thank you so very much for having me. And Angela is a graduate of this Seductive Storylines course and coaching program. So thank you.

Angela Haas (01:24)
Yes. Yes.

Cassie Newell (01:26)
you

Angela Haas (01:27)
it was so amazing. And it's not very long. And we'll talk about that later. We're going to dive into some questions. But I do want you to talk about that because I loved how you got so much information, but it wasn't like a six month course. It was so great. So not a lot to commit to. But let's talk about romance because we're all romance.

Cassie Newell (01:43)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (01:48)
authors and we obviously fell in love with romance but Paula Judith what led you to write romance was there any other genre you were originally interested in or was it always just romance for you

Paula Judith Johnson (02:02)
It's always been romance. Love is what makes the world go round. And I am drawn to the emotional complexity and the connection between people. So to me, it's not so much a question about will it work out? It's more about how it will work out. Everybody's situation is different.

Cassie Newell (02:18)
Mm.

Paula Judith Johnson (02:23)
I mean that by characters because they're people too. But how will they change throughout the novel? How will they become better people because of love? And I've read broadly in genre fiction all of my life and I have written little snippets of things that are not romance, but as far as novel writing, romance is my sole focus.

Angela Haas (02:47)
Cassie, what about you? We've talked about this before a little bit. You haven't always written romance solely, but what led you to romance?

Paula Judith Johnson (02:50)
But...

Cassie Newell (02:56)
It's funny, I started

writing in young adult fantasy because I was the mother of two young girls and I wanted a female heroine that wasn't dependent on a prince and granted they're older now, they're grown and flown. But when I look at what I like to read, it has always been romance. I've been reading J.R. Ward since she started and now we're

30 something books in and all kinds of different types of romance from contemporary to fantasy to country. like country and southern romance to a little bit of historical not a lot. But I've kind of run the gamut. So it's kind of interesting because I had friends that would ask me Yeah, what what should I read in this type of romance and this sub genre?

Angela Haas (03:49)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (03:50)
And that was like my

love language to give them books of what to read and which authors. I was like, and the question came to me, why aren't you writing these? It was really interesting because it was kind of like, you know, I should. But I found most recently, Paula, I don't know about you or Angela, I can't read the sub genre I'm writing in while I'm writing in it.

it messes with me. I can read other types of romance outside of that sub-genre, but I can't read anything close to what I'm writing. It's very weird. Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (04:27)
That's interesting. I

Angela Haas (04:28)
Interesting.

Paula Judith Johnson (04:29)
don't know. When I'm writing, if I get stuck, sometimes reading other

novels in my sub-genre helps get me unstuck.

Cassie Newell (04:39)
Mmm, yeah.

Angela Haas (04:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, I have to read what I'm writing because If I try to read a thriller while I'm writing Romance I put too much suspense in it. And I'm like, okay, there doesn't need to be a cliffhanger, possibly a murder suspect in the middle of this.

And I have to read the same tense because if I'm writing in present and reading in past, my mind starts to write in past. So yeah, I can't. I have to read exactly.

Cassie Newell (05:01)
interesting. Well, lately, I've been listening to

a lot more audio books, too. So maybe that's part of it. And it's been surprisingly dark fantasy romance, kind of. But they're more comedic. And I do write comedic things. So I mean, I guess it's kind of similar. But it needs to be a departure for me.

Paula Judith Johnson (05:24)
You know, I'm surprised that you mentioned that. I don't write comedic. However, I know every single one of my books has something a scene in it that isn't, I don't write it with the intention of making my readers chuckle or laugh, but I feel it lightens it just a little bit sometimes when you need it.

Cassie Newell (05:34)
Mm.

Yeah,

Angela Haas (05:45)
And you're writing.

Cassie Newell (05:45)
I love comedic elements.

Angela Haas (05:47)
You're writing historical romance mostly. Isn't that true? Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (05:50)
Yeah,

mostly. I have two contemporaries out. The first one was supposed to be a standalone, but everybody wanted to know what happened to these other characters. So there was a sequel. I was amazed when I actually went back and looked at the first book to realize it had everything it needed for a sequel. So that was wonderful. But, that one has what I think is a hilarious proposal scene in it.

Cassie Newell (06:07)
How nice.

Paula Judith Johnson (06:14)
This guy is proposing to this girl. He puts the ring on her finger and she's like, no, I'm not gonna marry you. They're in a restaurant. And so the table next to him has these women. how romantic. He's down on his knees and she's like, no, I won't marry you. And they're going boo boo, know? And then somebody from the foyer is like,

Cassie Newell (06:35)
no.

Paula Judith Johnson (06:38)
You know, you don't need her. And it all boils down to she gets up and knocks him on his butt, you know, and she leaves the restaurant, but she still has a ring on her finger, you know, and so it goes kind of on for there. yeah, and he's like this guy, I'm never going to let anybody know that, you know, I was humiliated this way, you how guys' egos are, so.

Angela Haas (06:41)
gosh.

my! ⁓

Cassie Newell (06:57)
awesome.

Angela Haas (06:57)
my goodness.

Cassie Newell (07:07)
goodness.

Angela Haas (07:07)
goodness.

Now I'm really curious about the rest of the book. Okay, writing historical fiction romance that I don't think it could ever do that. That just seems like it seems daunting because you not only have to satisfy the romance reader tropes, but also

Cassie Newell (07:14)
fun.

Angela Haas (07:31)
historical fiction. seems like, they say it's fiction, but there's an element of like, you still have to get it right with the time and period. What are your tips for writing historical?

Paula Judith Johnson (07:43)
Well, yeah,

my first novel, of course, I had not written creatively since high school and I was in my early 50s. And it took me three years to write that. Because a lot of it was historical research, but I'm very glad that my husband helped me because this was before the days of the internet. ⁓ At least before my days of the internet. And so he helped me a lot. But my husband and I for 20 some odd years had been members of a

Angela Haas (08:00)
Mm-hmm.

Paula Judith Johnson (08:10)
Black Powder Mountain Man Shooting Club, 1800s to 1840s, know, that mountain man era of the United States. And so I was familiar with shooting flintlocks, cap locks, rifles, pistols, throwing tomahawks and all that kind of stuff. I was familiar with that dressing for the era. And I love that era. And my personal preference is to write around

Angela Haas (08:16)
Wow.

Paula Judith Johnson (08:38)
the time of the War of 1812, because it's like the forgotten second war of our independence from Britain. So, you you really have to immerse yourself in the history. Research is fine, but I feel that some of the stuff that I read that is not

right is all I can say is because people haven't immersed themselves in it or they haven't refined their research. I mean you take a pistol and we're talking about pistols that are a foot long. So when you have this regency gal stuffing a pistol in her pocket it's like man she's got a huge pocket you know. And especially if you're dealing with earlier times

Angela Haas (09:15)
You

Cassie Newell (09:16)
Hehehehe

Paula Judith Johnson (09:22)
1700s, early 1800s, where flintlocks were really used. The other real problem that you get into is people priming a gun and then, you know, stuffing it in their pocket again, because, the priming powder is just going to fall out of the priming pan. you don't want to have it primed and everything ready to go because you don't want to shoot your leg off either. So, so to me it is

Angela Haas (09:28)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (09:46)
Mm.

Paula Judith Johnson (09:46)
very

important that you get your historical research correct. there's only one gun that I shot that was not a replica and it was built in the early 1890s and it was a cap lock, a shotgun, double barrel shotgun that would, I mean, I'm a strong woman. I'm five foot 10, so it's not like I'm a little weeping.

Angela Haas (10:10)
Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (10:10)
nothing girl, but I mean it could knock me on my behind, you know, if it was loaded in a hunting load. you know, you need to, you know, get your hands, if you're going to be writing anything that has something like that in it, go to a club. They're more than happy to help you. Get your fingers around that

gun and find out what they have. And in the United States, there's these clubs all over the place.

Angela Haas (10:32)
.

Paula Judith Johnson (10:36)
A lot of them in the South are more civil war, you know, but you're still dealing with cap locks and not modern smokeless powder. So you can get your things together there. Another thing is remembering, of course, if you're dealing with before the time of telegraphs and trains, remember that

distances were farther apart. It doesn't seem like 25 miles would be that far, but if you're on horseback,

Angela Haas (11:03)
Right.

Paula Judith Johnson (11:07)
unless you're racing that horse, which you don't want to race a horse 25 miles, it's going to take you most of a day to get there. Consider time seems stretched out compared to today. Those, think, are the

Cassie Newell (11:14)
Right.

Paula Judith Johnson (11:22)
The main things I notice on reading historical romance where the people aren't very familiar with the time or they stay in today's age instead of in the age that they're writing. So you have to kind of really kind of put yourself in that position, that mind frame.

Angela Haas (11:40)
Yeah, you have to

travel through time, And I think the internet is helpful, but probably going to museums and talking to people, Sometimes it's through the stories that have been passed down and not just what you can Google, I think that's where you.

Paula Judith Johnson (11:54)
That's

very true. And I think some of the mistakes that people make is that they take what they read as being how it is, especially a fiction thing, that you don't know if that person has done their research right. so, and I admit in my very first novel, it was out a few years. It started in 18, I think it was 1805 or six, something like that, and ended right after the beginning of the war of 1812.

And it wasn't until a few years after it was published that I found out that women back then did not wear female undergarments. We know them today. They didn't wear underwear. What can I say? Yeah. But I had a scene,

Cassie Newell (12:33)
Right.

Angela Haas (12:34)
my.

Paula Judith Johnson (12:38)
the marriage scene in the marriage bed where he's undressing this gal and he's taking off her panties, not panties, but

you know, whatever those pantaloons, thank you. Yeah, and, and, but those came much later. So, so I, you know, I've made my mistakes too. And I have to say that when we were reenacting, I always wore underwear.

Cassie Newell (12:48)
Hmph.

Angela Haas (12:49)
Cantaloupes? No. Yeah. Wow.

Cassie Newell (12:55)
Interesting.

Good to know.

Angela Haas (13:03)
Okay, I mean, it's

a little air conditioning, I guess, but yeah, let's, you know, there's some propriety. Okay. That's good to know.

Paula Judith Johnson (13:06)
you

But you weren't expecting I-

Cassie Newell (13:15)
So I guess just talking about romance in general as a genre, what makes a great romance book and what does a writer need to deliver on when they're writing romance?

Paula Judith Johnson (13:26)
Well, you know, we talked a little bit about immersion for the author, but you also want, more importantly, I think, is immersion for your readers. You want them to fall in love with your characters right alongside them. romance is all about relationship.

how does their relationship, make them better people? And you know, it's really kind of funny because I think about this, I'm a widow, I was married for 45 years to a man 18 years older than me, which seems like, you know, that seems like a lot. But when I think back on it, I know I was married to the perfect man for me.

Angela Haas (13:54)
Hmm.

my.

Cassie Newell (14:08)
Mm-hmm.

Paula Judith Johnson (14:08)
I am a better person. I know I am a better person for having lived so many years with this man. And that I think is what we need to bring into our romance novels. What is it? And

granted, some of them might be short, like seven days, others might be epic, multi-generational things, but it all boils down to what is it about

this romance, these two people that

that makes them, what is it about the romance of these two people that makes them better? How will they grow as people to be better people? another thing that makes a great romance novel, you have to have stakes and the stakes have to feel personal.

It's not so much will they or won't they. It's more about what will they risk? What are they risking for love? And sometimes it's not what will they lose if love fails. It's what are they risking if love succeeds? What will that reveal about themselves and their love interest? So what makes that connection authentic?

Cassie Newell (15:04)
Mm.

Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (15:21)
How do we build that emotional tension so that it starts out maybe a little bit and gets stronger? What's keeping them apart? it both not just only the outward plot, but what is it within them that needs to change that will allow them to accept love or believe they can be loved? And that tension needs to build so that

Angela Haas (15:26)
.

Paula Judith Johnson (15:47)
when we finally get to the resolution, it does seem throughout the book that it's inevitable, but it also has to feel like it was hard won. know, it can't just be handed to them. And of course, I think every romance novel has to deliver on that promise that love isn't just possible, but it's also very much worth fighting for.

Cassie Newell (15:56)
Yeah.

I love that. That makes me think of Angela's book because hers actually she does the hard hard win like it goes up and down up and down up and down. You know, you know, they're going to get together because at some point they're getting together. But you know, it's it's fun to watch.

Angela Haas (16:12)
I just got chills.

Yeah, that's not some readers, I think, and I'm not saying all but some of the younger readers didn't like that. They just didn't understand why there was such a fight because I like to deal with like, how do we these are a little bit older people.

How do we come out of things that have really hurt us or traumatized us to be open to love again? And man, they just were, they wanted to smack my main male lead across, over the head because he wasn't falling in love fast enough, but he really had to win the fight within himself, but also know that he had to fight for Rachel, his love interest.

And that's a process to me. you can believe in love at first sight, but sometimes it's all about what we have to overcome to win in the end. And that starts with ourselves, you know.

Paula Judith Johnson (17:29)
You are so

right. You are so right with that.

Angela Haas (17:31)
Well,

it's only because also you helped me with that book.

Paula Judith Johnson (17:35)
Angela's correct. I mean, you can see somebody and fall in love at first sight, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be an easy road to overcome the internal obstacles that one or the other, know, and probably both of these people have. And that, think, is what readers go to romance novels for. You know, I don't know if it's because they're wanting to see the romance they never had.

Angela Haas (17:57)
Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (18:02)
or they're wanting to validate that their romance is just like every other. you don't stay married for 45 years and have everything a smooth glide. I think so many people are willing to give up too soon on the before and the after anymore.

Angela Haas (18:15)
I agree. Cassie, it's interesting because you're writing short. So, I mean, I have a whole novel to have these people fight for love. And you did it beautifully in not that many words, you know, compared to a full length novel. I mean, in 92,000 words.

Cam and Rachel found love. So what, how do you do that when you're writing short?

Cassie Newell (18:41)
do it in 20,000.

so for short romance, Paula, please interject to it's the first page it has to be an immediate attraction. So I call it falling in lust. Well, not love because that hasn't happened yet. But there has to be something about their personalities that they're overcoming and in

In romance, I lean heavily on tropes because I don't have the word space to lead you to the trope. It's very immediate. that was my guidebook, if you will, of ensuring that I'm getting there. So for example, the latest book that's coming out or by the time this comes out, it will come out already, Bitter Tart Temptations.

I have an age gap and a grump sunshine where she's always had a little, I'm curious about him, but he has a traumatized past. He doesn't really date. He's kind of grumpy and she's very sunshiny. So of course I'm leaning on those very heavily. And then I introduce what his past is to overcome that for her to be open and she's just frustrated with him. But she's also an introvert. I have them both kind of introverted.

so that when they finally get there, it's an expression of their love together as introverts, which is quite hard for them internally. But it was difficult. That one was really difficult because I put a lot more thought into it outside of the tropes of their characters coming together. But I think when you're writing short, you just don't have the space to lead people to the...

the water with the horse, you kind of have to be on the horse riding, you know? So yeah, I don't know.

Angela Haas (20:21)
Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (20:24)
So

how many words are you talking about for short?

Cassie Newell (20:27)
20,000, 20 to 25,000. So it's an under two hour read is the goal. So I marketed as short romance for busy readers. So these are your light fluffy potato chip reads between your longer novels. Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (20:40)
I don't know. I haven't written a novel for less than 88,000 words yet.

Angela Haas (20:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, I can't, I can't write short. I can't do it. I couldn't, but I mean, never say never, but I just.

Cassie Newell (20:46)
Hahaha!

It's...

It's fun. It's a challenge because a lot of short is, and I'm sure we'll get to this too, are very intimate scenes and it's very upfront and very lustful kind of things. And I didn't want to go that direction. I do have intimate scenes in these books, but it's not until they're to like at the end when or there's a conflict they have to overcome at the very end to have their happily ever after. But I find it

Angela Haas (20:53)
I need more time.

Cassie Newell (21:21)
I don't know, it's been challenging and fun and super rewarding. So I like it. talking, speaking about intimate scenes, craft wise, what do you think about when it comes to intimate scenes for new writers who get nervous about romance and intimate scenes? Like, how do you coach writers who haven't written those types of scenes before? Because I find it either really hard or really easy. It like,

It never comes super, like I'm somewhere on one fence or the other when I'm drafting it.

Paula Judith Johnson (21:54)
Yeah, I think it was my very first Writing Romance Mastery Summit. I interviewed Lisa London and she's on YouTube and talks, I think exclusively about romance. But I remember what she said and I'm going to have to paraphrase it because I didn't go back and watch the whole thing to find the exact words. But basically she said, if you are uncomfortable writing sex scenes,

Cassie Newell (22:01)
Mmm.

Paula Judith Johnson (22:19)
your readers will be uncomfortable reading it. And it truly

Cassie Newell (22:22)
I love.

Angela Haas (22:23)
That's such a good point. Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (22:26)
is. So, you know, I coach people who do everything from sweet and clean, clear up to erotic romance. I don't coach erotica because erotica is not relationship based and I feel romance is relationship based. the thing to think about is

Cassie Newell (22:40)
Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (22:47)
what heat level are you particularly comfortable writing about? And realize that there are readers clamoring for every heat level So whatever you're comfortable writing, find those readers.

steamy romance or a spicy romance, chances are

you're going to be a little bit more comfortable writing it. I think one thing to remember very definitely is that there is a difference between emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. when we talk about romance, it's really kind of a combination of both. So when it comes to sex scenes, you don't want them to sound like a sex manual.

You don't want to have an insert tab A into slot B, you know?

Angela Haas (23:33)
What happened?

Cassie Newell (23:35)
of love that though

for a comedic one. I may have to try.

Angela Haas (23:36)
I'm

Paula Judith Johnson (23:41)
So, you

very definitely want to, in the steamy or spicy sex scenes, I guess you don't even have any of the sex scenes in the other, although in Sweet and Clean you can still have closed door, but it's more about the emotional journey than it is the physical titillation. So, you want to remember to build tension and raise the stakes as you go along.

Cassie Newell (23:53)
Mm-hmm.

Paula Judith Johnson (24:06)
show the changes in the character, how do they change emotionally? Think about desire and intimacy as being more than just the mechanics of sex. So how does the sex affect them emotionally before, during, and after the scene?

Cassie Newell (24:27)
I love that.

Angela Haas (24:29)
I think

it starts with the pantaloons and where they are. I'm just kidding. What were you gonna say, Cassie? No, that's...

Cassie Newell (24:33)
It does.

Angela Haas (24:38)
that's a great bullet point. And I think sometimes you forget about the differences between just having sex and the true intimacy around the scene. I read all kinds and I've read somewhere it's a little more graphic

But I feel like I get desensitized and I'm like, okay, here we are again. know, because I like the character arc and journey and the intimacy. I like all the buildup because I feel like that's really exciting to write and kind of the will they won't they because Cassie, an arc reader or wasn't your daughter an arc reader said this to you that once they actually sometimes do have sex, then it's.

harder to keep the reader like engaged in the rest because the buildup is there and then they do it and it's like, well, they already did it. mean, you know.

Cassie Newell (25:20)
over.

Paula Judith Johnson (25:29)
That

is an excellent point because having done it, whether it's behind closed doors or on the page, it releases all of the tension, all of that buildup that you're talking about, Angela. It releases it. And so you've had this buildup and now you go like this. And so now you have to start that buildup all over again.

And ideally, you're not going back to square one. It's kind of an up and down, but always on an upward slope. But yes, you very definitely, it removes all the tension. And so what you don't want is for the people to close the book and say, well, that was fun. And are they going to open it again? So you have to immediately go into something that starts building that tension again.

Angela Haas (25:50)
Right.

Cassie Newell (26:14)
Yeah, I think for me it was because I'm writing short. Like that's the big finale to the most, for the most part, because there's not a lot of pages that for what I was doing, which is emotional based character relationships, there's gonna be one major scene pretty much that would be intimate of that nature of the couple together. So it was just kind of killing that tension.

you know, of will they won't they because, well, they did now what well, there's four more chapters, what do I care? You know, it was kind of one of those things. I think in novels, it's a little different, right? Because you can add tension that maybe it didn't go so well the first time, or maybe he had preconceived notions, or she does or I'm glad I got that out of my system. But he's madly in love, you know, all those things. I feel like

you know, I've seen the gamut of it's so fun to watch marketing nowadays, because they'll say, 11 sex scenes in this book, or, you know, X, Y, and Z. you know, people are gravitating to whatever, you know, and some of them aren't really tropes. But they're calling them tropes. They're just, you know, plot devices. You know, for example, he falls first isn't technically a trope, but it's used all the time, you know, or

things that you know, they find particularly fun in the book, but I love seeing the marketing of those things that catch the readers that enjoy a higher intense spicy book, versus maybe a slow burn book, you know, type things. But I find it interesting how tropes are used. I'm curious as to your thoughts on romance tropes, Paula.

Do you have an opinion on them?

Paula Judith Johnson (27:59)
And it's only been recently that I've given it any thought. Jennifer Hilt has written a series of trope books, meaning she explains the different tropes. And she has one specifically on romance. And I got that because I was very curious. I had always avoided tropes because it was like formulaic.

She immediately said, one of the very first sentences or the first paragraph says, you need to have five to 10 tropes in your novel. I'm going, what? I totally panicked because I thought I don't have any tropes. Well, I did. I did. I started reading her explanations. So she has little explanations, and then she has novels that she.

Angela Haas (28:35)
You

Paula Judith Johnson (28:44)
points out here are all the tropes in these novels. And I went back and I looked at my novels and I'm going, my gosh, I didn't know I had that trope in there. I didn't know I had that trope in there. And I realized I have many tropes in my novel. And I realized also that I'm really missing out on a marketing benefit of using tropes. And I do have to rewrite my descriptions on Amazon and other places.

to highlight what tropes are in those books because a lot of people are looking specifically for tropes

Angela Haas (29:18)
Okay.

Paula Judith Johnson (29:19)
that they like, that they go to time and time again. And if your description doesn't mention any of these tropes, they might go right past it no matter how enticing your cover is. So yes, a book cover is important because that catches the eye quickly.

But then your description is the next important thing. And definitely you should mention the tropes that you have in there because you will catch the interest of the people who like those tropes.

Angela Haas (29:47)
I need to do that, I think. But I kind of, once I put my book out and readers finished it, they kind of said what tropes they saw, then I was like, yeah, I meant to do that. Yeah, that's in there.

But the one thing I didn't realize, which I wasn't planning on, was that my first one was a slow burn because there isn't, they don't have sex until the very end. Now there's intimate steamy moments, but I was like, wow, that's a slow burn. And that's kind of circling back to those intimate scenes and tropes with a slow burn. Sometimes where I get stuck is,

I think some readers don't like this slow burn because they just kind of want it to happen. But if I lean into it, where is the, there's a science to the placement of the buildup and the intimate scenes. And I feel like where I'm at right now, I have too few, but you don't want too many. And it's like, even in those tropes, each one has this template and formula.

But how do you navigate that? Or do you just write it? Do you just do it? You sometimes I get all this information stuck in my head and then it stops me from writing. We had this conversation the other day.

Paula Judith Johnson (31:08)
I just write

it, I just write it. And then it's afterwards where I go back and I say, yeah, that is a trope. For instance, my first novel, is, I admit, it's not my best novel, but it's my most beloved novel because that story rattled around in my head for 25 years before I sat down and wrote it. And if I was to write that story today, what I know today, it would be the same story, but it would be written differently. I'm not sure that I...

Angela Haas (31:26)
Well.

Paula Judith Johnson (31:34)
I'm not the kind of person to go back and change it though. But you know, so I have in there secret baby who had thought a secret baby was

a trope, but I have a secret baby in there, you know, and I have an enemies to lovers in there. He's an American. She's a British gal who's leading up to the war of 1812. You know, I have, those are the two that come to my mind, but

Cassie Newell (31:44)
It is.

Paula Judith Johnson (31:58)
You know, times were different then. It was a more autocratic society. marriage of convenience, it's, you ⁓ because she thought it was a marriage of convenience. She found it a very inconvenient marriage, as a matter of fact. you know, and he falls in love first. Yeah, there's all these different things in there. And you don't really think about them. It's not, to me anyway, it's not as if you have this trope.

Cassie Newell (32:04)
Mm.

Paula Judith Johnson (32:24)
and it has to be written this way. What it is is you pick out pieces of the tropes, you know? I mean, the secret baby is because he had a mistress, right? And that was not uncommon during those times. Hell, it's probably not uncommon these days.

Angela Haas (32:41)
That's continued, but.

Paula Judith Johnson (32:42)
But I mean, it all boils

down to you take up bits and pieces. It's not like you have an entire novel written in one trope and it has to be this way. It isn't that way. I don't see it that way anyway.

Cassie Newell (32:55)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (33:01)
Yeah, you can put your spin on it, I think. But there is a balance to still meeting reader expectations of that trope. But also, I was going back and forth like, is this truly enemies to lovers? in the one I'm writing now, they have the same goal. But they want to get there differently.

But I'm still going to market it as enemies to lovers because they don't like each other in the beginning. They are, they're fighting. So.

Paula Judith Johnson (33:26)
Yeah, and I think that qualifies

as an enemies to lover. It doesn't mean that the entire book has to be an enemies to lover. They argue and bicker and fight the entire thing and then, was, my gosh, we're in love. I mean, those are the kinds of things that gave tropes a bad name as being where this is what makes, this is what I think.

Cassie Newell (33:44)
Yeah, they made them cliches.

Angela Haas (33:44)
Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (33:50)
so exciting about writing romance is that you can take bits and pieces of this. So you have your enemies to lovers in the respect that they're not getting along at the very, very beginning. But you also have, and I don't know if it's a trope or not, the whole thing about love is healing, you know? And I mean, that's basically what their journey is, is that, you know, they have to overcome those obstacles within themselves in order to open themselves up for love. And

and let those past traumas be in the past and not guiding their life today. And that is the whole healing part. And I think in a lot of ways, all of romance, because you're dealing with a flawed or wounded character in some manner, and they always have to overcome whatever those challenges are.

It is a healing process. It heals, they become a whole person, you know? I think that the beauty is that you can take bits and pieces and craft them and weave them together and make a story that is unique. And you can still say you have this, that, and the other tropes in there.

Of course you don't come right out and say, these are the tropes. You weave it into your description so that people understand those, that the tropes are there. But that's what makes it unique and that's why it's not like, I don't know, you take books 30 years ago, some of those Harlequin books. mean, those were, to me, what gave tropes kind of a bad name is because it was

a shorter book like what Cassie writes, but it was like this is one trope and they argue all the way through then they fall in love. Or the whole book is about why these two can't get together and then there's the secret baby that they had that he didn't know about. So you can weave them all together and make a unique story.

Cassie Newell (35:26)
Mm.

Angela Haas (35:37)
Yes, that is a great and that's something

That's good to remember. Cassie, you wrote four books that was there a trope you didn't use? mean, you explored, I think a lot of your favorites, didn't you? What are some of your favorites? But what you you really touched on a lot of popular ones.

Cassie Newell (35:49)
I did.

So I

love a good enemies to lovers and I think possibly because I'm fairly competitive and I have a really high command. So I like the competition pieces of enemies to lovers. I love a good second chance romance because I love when it doesn't work out for whatever reason and then to overcome that for them to come back together. I kind of love that.

Yeah, I like the combination of different tropes. The books that I found really helpful, I think it's by Cindy Dees, that has not only character tropes, but plot tropes for romance. And I found that really interesting. I didn't lean into the plot pieces so much as the character pieces. And I think...

tropes for me help layer in the complications of characters and the relationships. So it just gives you a really good roadmap. So I played with so many of them and I took

Angela Haas (36:55)
Yeah, what are the,

listeners, what's, for you, you know, what's the difference between a plot and a character? Like what are some plot ones that we might not realize?

Cassie Newell (37:02)
So first.

Yeah, so like, motorcycle club, mountain men, those, like they go into also, because I'm writing firefighters, that's actually not considered a character trope. That's more of a plot trope. That's their exterior of who they are. Interior is the other pieces of your character tropes. If I've got that right, maybe I have that backwards. But of course, they're sitting on the shelf behind me. But

Angela Haas (37:29)
I think that's how it's right.

Cassie Newell (37:32)
Yeah, I think it's interesting because there's these aspects that they like really drive down and I found them really helpful in the very beginning. And for me, knowing my tropes is part of my outlining and it helps me but I'm writing short right now I'm writing a novel. And it was tough. My very first chapter was like I was writing a short story and Angela was like, Whoa, lady. And I was like, crap.

Angela Haas (37:59)
You.

Cassie Newell (38:00)
because I have to reshape how I'm doing it, you know, and

I'm in it, but I'm in the mucky middle and it's a trodge It's killing me, but I've just got to the point that they kissed and it's not a good thing and yay, I'm off. I'm off to the races now.

Angela Haas (38:14)
boy.

Well, that brings me to another question for Paula Judith. When you coach authors and when you're coaching them on romance, what do you think like the top three struggles?

for someone writing romance? Is there a common struggle that you come back to in your coaching over and over that you're seeing and how we can do better?

Paula Judith Johnson (38:38)
Well,

To me, the first thing and the big thing is telling instead of showing.

And it's something I struggled with in the very beginning. I don't worry about it so much in the first draft as I'm going along because I just need to get some words down there. But very definitely, I look at that.

Am I presenting this scene from a character's point of view or am I summarizing it just to get information out? And you want both, but a rule of thumb is that you don't want more than 30 % of your novel in a passive voice. So you want to use

showing 70 % of the time and telling only 30 % of the time at the most. you know, take writing in third-person past tense, which I think is the majority of the romance novels that you'll find, you want to avoid using the past perfect tense except when referring to distant past things. Things that, you know, if your heroine is 18 or 25 years old, using had been or has been

or have been would be more of like when she was a child. If it was last week, it was was. So was is the past tense, have been, had been is the past perfect tense. And past perfect tense separates the reader from the action. So that's the one thing you can improve a novel tremendously just by shifting to more showing and less telling.

Angela Haas (40:02)
Gotcha.

Cassie Newell (40:15)
Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (40:18)
Another thing that probably not everybody notices, maybe more people notice it than they realize until they go back and, know, if you've ever been reading along, say that you're in a scene that has two people of the same gender and you're reading along and then you get to your pronouns and your pronouns, you have two he's and two she's, you know, if you have two men, they're talking and you have two he's.

two women, you have two she's, then you have to, well, which he is they are they talking about? You know, so you have to remember where, you know, what noun is your pronoun referring back to? And so when you use pronouns, I would caution people to always go back and take a look. If you use that pronoun, who is it referring back to? You know, sometimes I get frustrated

Cassie Newell (40:48)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (40:55)
Great.

Paula Judith Johnson (41:08)
trying to rewrite a sentence to get my pronouns correct. But on the other hand, I know that when I'm reading and I get confused about who the he is or who she is, and I have to go back and reread that, it has taken me out of the story.

I just recently attempted to read a novel from one of my author followers. This woman told me that she had just published her debut novel and she wanted to thank me very much for the summits I put on and.

you know, the different spotlight on romance, things that I have, things like that, that are free. And ⁓ so I thought, well, how great, that was so nice of her to tell me that. I ordered her book and, I was about a third of the way through. finally emailed her and I said, hop onto a Zoom call with me. You know, I don't...

Angela Haas (41:42)
you

Paula Judith Johnson (41:58)
I will not give you a bad review, which means that I won't leave you

a review, which might disappoint you, but I want to explain why. And so we talked and she has a good story concept, but there were so many things wrong with it. it's, know, things that at one time or another, I had probably fell into every single one of those things. most of the story was

just narrative with a little bit of dialogue thrown in and so that's very definitely telling and There was no tension. I mean these were perfect heroin heroines and perfect heroes and the big problem was a War was keeping them apart. Well, okay, you know, so you know and then

Angela Haas (42:23)
Hmm.

We need more

flawed heroes. Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (42:48)
Yeah, they

need more flaws, She just needs help with that, you know, but she was off on to

an entirely different subgenre by the time we talked.

Angela Haas (42:57)
So, I got help from you and I appreciate you sharing that because I think we need to give our heroes flaws. when they have talents and they're experts and everything is easy.

that definitely takes the tension out. tell us a little bit about your Seductive Storylines course, which I took, and then the Romance Mastery Summits, which I also was a part of, and that was amazing.

Paula Judith Johnson (43:20)
Okay, so, well, I will start with the summits. I did my first one in 2023. did two in 2023, two in 2024, and there will be a second one. I did one in January of this year, and there will be one in August. After that, there will only be the August ones. So I'm cutting back from two a year to one a year. And I...

focus in on writing craft, publication, whether it is traditional or self-publishing and marketing, either paid or free. So these are the things I focus on if you want to learn about writing, publishing or marketing. that's what the summits are for. I bring in expert speakers on all of those topics and they always change.

sometimes I have the same speakers, but they're different topics. Sometimes I have new speakers and sometimes it's more craft. The seductive storylines, I've been doing that in various renditions for four or five years now, I guess. And with your advice, Angela, I'm changing it from the seven week course to a 10 week course.

Angela Haas (44:27)
Okay.

Paula Judith Johnson (44:30)
Just because I think it gives people more time to, as you had mentioned to me, more time to fill things out. So, you know, we start out is not from page one to page last. It is the major beats of a romance novel. And then I throw in bonuses like, you know, the different purposes and ways that men and women talk. So, dialogue.

Angela Haas (44:46)
Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (44:55)
I throw in extra things like the stages of physical intimacy, the stages of emotional intimacy, using the five senses. Those are all extras, but basically it's opening scenes, strong set up scenes,

going into the meet-cute, which I call a memorable meeting because in romance they're always memorable, aren't they? And then we go into the beats of why one or both

Angela Haas (45:17)
Yes.

Paula Judith Johnson (45:25)
feel they can't do this. Why this, it just isn't right now or it isn't right forever, what's keeping them apart. And then we go into what's drawing them together, love is beckoning them. And so they're being drawn together and you hit your midpoint and then all the doubts start coming in. And of course you have all those obstacles that lead to, you know, all is lost in the dark night of the soul and then

your climax and your resolution. So we go through those major beats and we also talk about a strong ending, which is an image of complete and what so many people love in romance is an epilogue, which a lot of times you don't find in other genres. So we go through those major beats and students submit their manuscript pages, we review them, see what we can do to

help them become better. yeah, we kind of go from there.

Angela Haas (46:21)
That was what was really helpful is not doing the feeling like you had to have the whole novel done, but from when

We went through my major beats. Then once I nailed that, could do, I could start building around those scenes, but just having you read it and getting the feedback live, that was really helpful. And sometimes when you were reading things back, I would catch things. So it's a wonderful course because you really get hands on help.

and feedback. I sometimes I don't like courses where you're of on your own I turned stuff in and that helped me with the accountability too. So I advise any listener if you're thinking about it definitely check out the Seductive Storylines course because it's a unique one and it really I learned a lot. So thank you.

Paula Judith Johnson (47:15)
Right,

anybody can learn more about it at my website, www.pauladjudithjohnson.com. So it's just my name, pauladjudithjohnson.com. And there's information on there. It's not an open all the time course. I open it at specific times during the year. It's limited to no more than seven people, no less than three people.

Angela Haas (47:25)
Yes.

Paula Judith Johnson (47:37)
I put a lot into it. I think my students put a lot into it and I'm so thrilled when it all comes together and gets published the way yours has, Angela.

Angela Haas (47:47)
Yeah, yeah. Well, this was so much fun. We so appreciate you coming on. It's now time for table topics. Okay, what is your hidden talent?

Cassie Newell (47:49)
you

Paula Judith Johnson (47:56)
Huh?

Cassie Newell (47:58)
Hmm

Paula Judith Johnson (48:05)
what is my hidden talent? Well, I've already told you about shooting black powder guns and throwing knives and tomahawks. those aren't hidden talents. I've already told you about those. I would think my hidden talent is how I channel people from 200 years ago into my novels. I swear, sometimes I'm not writing them. They're writing themselves.

Angela Haas (48:10)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (48:11)
I love that.

Angela Haas (48:24)
Wow.

they're speaking through you. Wow. Wow.

Paula Judith Johnson (48:31)
I think so. doesn't come from my brain, but it definitely comes out of my hand.

I hand write my novels and then transcribe them onto the computer.

Angela Haas (48:43)
Ooh, that's really, that's interesting. Wow. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (48:44)
Wow.

Paula Judith Johnson (48:44)
And

I've never really kept track because...

I know I shouldn't do it this way, but this is how I do it. I will write a scene and then I refine that scene. And so, you know, I started chapter one usually and go to chapter end, which might be 40 or 50 or however many chapters. And if you take a look at how I organize things, you know, it's kind of like how they organize them in libraries,

I learned the first time that I don't want to lose the stuff when I change it. So I don't use just TrackChanger or anything. I resave it each time with a new chapter one, draft one, first try, second try, third try, fourth try. And so I might have anywhere from five to 12 different things for each chapter.

Angela Haas (49:29)
Right.

Paula Judith Johnson (49:38)
And all of them have been handwritten and then revised and I'm usually revising by hand too. So, you know, 90,000 word novel to me, I probably write a half a million words or more all by hand.

Cassie Newell (49:51)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (49:52)
That's amazing.

Cassie Newell (49:53)
Wow.

Angela Haas (49:54)
That's such an interesting way to do it. Wow. That's actually, I think that's your secret talent. Writing a novel by hand. I'm not sure I could do that.

Paula Judith Johnson (49:56)
Yeah, well, I think it.

Well, it's really

kind of, I think it slows down my brain enough to actually think about what I'm writing. I mean, for so many years in business, I can whip off a business letter on a computer in three seconds flat, but it stops my creativeness. And you really need creativeness to write a novel. And writing by hand, they,

Angela Haas (50:12)
Right. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (50:23)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (50:23)
Right.

Yeah.

Paula Judith Johnson (50:28)
there has been research that there is very definitely a connection between the right side of the brain or whichever side of the brain it is and you're in handwriting.

Angela Haas (50:35)
I brought this up.

I brought this up in our episode with Jeff. I didn't know the study and I'm going to find it so that I sound smarter, but it is true. Like you memorize things better and you process them better when you're handwriting, especially when you're taking notes. So see, you validated that. So I knew I was right. Cassie what is your... hidden talent.

Cassie Newell (50:42)
you

I can pick things up with my toes.

Angela Haas (51:04)
my gosh.

Cassie Newell (51:04)
Yep. I used to I was awful big sister to my little sister when she would irritate me and she'd be like all over me. I could take my toes and pinch her calf. Yeah, I use it more because now I'm just lazy about bending over to pick things up. But yeah.

Angela Haas (51:15)
You

That's

probably something good for your brain to try to be, you know, using your toes in that way. That's cool.

Paula Judith Johnson (51:29)
I bet

you have very good arches. Yeah. But you know, I saw a picture one time of a man and I think he had maybe been one of these people that undid bombs, you know, because he didn't have any arms anymore, which is a very sad thing. But he was writing with his foot. He had a pencil between his toes and he was writing So I was shocked.

Cassie Newell (51:32)
I do.

Angela Haas (51:48)
yeah!

Cassie Newell (51:44)
No.

Paula Judith Johnson (51:53)
like that to me is an amazing thing. So there you go Cassie, something to work on for your next novel.

Cassie Newell (51:56)
He

Angela Haas (51:56)
That is amazing. Oh gosh.

Cassie Newell (51:59)
Yeah, maybe.

Angela Haas (52:00)
I can actually, I can sing. I was a theater major, but I loved being in musicals because I actually also can dance and sing. I'm kind of musically talented. I played the French horn for seven years. And yeah, I...

I can do some mean car karaoke. I wanted to be... ⁓

Paula Judith Johnson (52:19)
So I want to know, you play

the French horn and sing at the same time?

Angela Haas (52:24)
No, I don't think so. But yeah, I can actually carry a tune those are cool things that all help with our creativity. well, thank you to Paula Judith Johnson for joining us today. yes, and listeners, don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you're listening. It really helps us with visibility.

Paula Judith Johnson (52:28)
All right.

Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been fun.

Cassie Newell (52:36)
Yeah, thank you.

Angela Haas (52:47)
Reach out to us. We are putting questions out on Spotify and we want to hear from you if there's topics you want us to cover, but just in general, we want to get to know you too. Next week, new month, we are going to, for the month of May, explore finding your people in the industry. So until then, keep writing, keep doing, and we'll see you soon.

Cassie Newell (53:13)
Bye.