Episode 20: Navigating Your Author Journey, Finding the Right Professionals

Cassie Newell (00:17)
Welcome, welcome, welcome. Today is episode 20. I'm Cassie Newell and I'm here with my co-host Angela Haas. And this month we're talking about how to find the right professionals to help you on your writing journey. This episode we're talking about our favorite people and companies who we've worked with and how to vet and find other industry professionals. Because sometimes it doesn't always work out. Right? gosh.

Angela Haas (00:44)
Exactly.

Cassie Newell (00:45)
Right? So what is difficult about finding the right people, Angela? Like, I know you and I have been there, when you're especially when you don't know who you don't know yet to even get word of mouth sometimes on the things you're looking for. So how difficult can it be? And what have you learned?

Angela Haas (00:56)
Mm-hmm.

I made so many mistakes when I first started, I'm always hard on myself, but you just don't know what you don't know But when you're just starting and you don't have maybe your solid writers groups yet,

just sort of throwing darts at the dartboard and be like, well, I'm ready to find an editor. How do I do that? we stress a lot of times joining some sort of writer's group is key when you're just starting out because you can ask people

Hey, does this sound right? Or how much do people usually charge for this? know, what are the standards? And you can find groups on Facebook, you can find them, you know, in different ways, but joining an author group is key. I think from there, for me, I try to read some testimonials, do a little Google search, try to do a little research on someone because

I just was flying blind and what was hurting me was the fact that I had no self-esteem because I was just starting out in this industry. put way too much trust into these individuals thinking they know more than me. They're the experts. I've got to listen and do whatever they say. And it's a balance. You have to learn how to take feedback.

but you also have to trust yourself if something doesn't feel right. But I think that's what makes it so hard when you're just starting out is because you maybe lack the confidence, you're struggling with imposter syndrome, and then you just don't know really where to look. If we're looking up a business, say, you know, we want to find a new dry cleaner, we Google it and read reviews and ask our neighbors. But in the

author industry, self-publishing industry, you know, there's not a lot of like credentials, right? I mean, people can say, I'm an editor. I like to edit and I'm an editor. And they don't always have to have something to back it up. And I think that's what makes it hard. So yeah, how do people, I mean, there are credentials though. I mean, what would people look at, you know,

Cassie Newell (03:01)
Yeah.

Sure.

Well, depends on

the service that you're looking for. So whether it's book covers, editing, coaching, yeah, it all those things have different credentials and different opportunities, either for your degrees, you know, experience, you don't always have to have a four year degree. You know, those types of things.

Angela Haas (03:19)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah

Cassie Newell (03:41)
With editors, you can become a part of different associations for editors too. And they go through a rigorous process to get those and be able to put them on their websites and things of that nature. They're also editing courses and classes to get certified. Same thing for coaches. Book covers a little different. I mean, that's design oriented. So seeing samples is

awesome, right? To see those samples is really important. Also knowing if you're working with a particular individual that has done previous covers, like if you're a reader, I don't know if anybody else does this. But when people say who is their book cover artist, I totally take note and I look them up. So like there's lots of ways I also love services, which

just to list a couple. Reitzy is really good to find contractors on all of these services. So you can say what types of things you're looking for, and it'll shoot it out. Another resource, if you're in the, you know, going the independent route is Ali, which is the Alliance of Independent Authors, and they have businesses listed too, and how they've vetted certain things. Some of them are just people in the listings, just like

Angela Haas (04:39)
is good to calm the stressors on all of these things.

⁓ huh.

Cassie Newell (05:03)
the old phone book days, I don't know if people remember phone book days. Then you just look up and then there's also ones that are vetted. You can also get coupons. There's so many things like those organizations do and maybe even your local organizations might do as well. So as you said, finding a community is really helpful in the beginning for sure. Yeah.

Angela Haas (05:05)
Right.

Right, yeah.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, I think so too. And I think for listeners who may not know, Reedsy it's a little different in that it's a database of professionals and you do have to pay a fee But the bonus with that

you have some recourse to say, hey, I had a bad experience and they'll be responsive. So that's the way to go. if you're really flying blind, don't have an author group, doing some research there, ⁓ even though it costs a little extra, it may save you money in the long run, because you're not just trying someone out that you may not finish with, you know.

Cassie Newell (05:57)
Yeah.

Right. And the service

though itself is free. So you can look up and have your own free service. It's just when you connect to the contractor, you book someone, you pay through just like Fiverr or any of those other services too. yeah.

Angela Haas (06:11)
Yes, yes.

when you book someone. Yeah, when you... Yeah, yeah, yes.

Yeah, no, that thank you for clarifying. Yeah, it's only when you really you you actually you pick five professionals say you're looking for a developmental editor you pick five professionals and then You can get offers from them talk to them see which one you're vibing with best Then you go ahead and sign a contract with them and then there's payment steps It's all nice and it just really I when I found

one of my favorite editors through ReadSee. I loved the process of you can make payments and you don't have to make the final payment until it's finished and you're happy and they ask you for a review, feedback. yeah, I like the process with ReadSee, although sometimes it can be a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah. I was just saying for...

Cassie Newell (07:11)
Yeah, I've used it a couple of times too. Yeah, it can be, but what's also cool

is if the favorite person that you would like to work with is unavailable, you can favorite them and you can get notifications of when they're available. So I've done that before. like, it's like this whole, it is a whole platform really. And it's grown quite a bit over the years too. So yeah, it's like.

Angela Haas (07:24)
Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

they have almost everything. think web services, marketing, they have all kinds of things. So yeah, check out Reedsy you mentioned the Alliance of Independent Authors. And for people who don't know, I think it's like, is it 120 a year or something like that? again, you have to manage costs.

Cassie Newell (07:56)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (07:59)
when you're starting out and I mean, you've managed to cost your entire career, but when you're just starting out, you want to be really careful about where you're spending money. But what I love about, is it ALLI or Allie? Let me say it short. Yeah, I'll just say, I think I said Allie. So ALLI

Cassie Newell (08:15)
is how I say it. Did I say Ellie earlier? I might have.

Angela Haas (08:24)
They have a database where if you're looking for a cover designer they have sort of a writer beware database where you can try to find that cover designer and if they're a member and they're that means they're a little bit more vetted and they're Saying hey, we know that these people come highly recommended. So I think those are two places to maybe start What do you think is there another? Place that you would start

Cassie Newell (08:46)
Yeah, I think those are great

starts. think too, when you get a little bit further into the process of things, if you're going the indie route and you're doing all the things yourself, so to speak, and granted, when I say yourself, you're, you know, contracting out, you kind of learn a lot too, because I've worked with editors where I've missed timelines and

Angela Haas (08:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (09:13)
editors have gotten really upset with me. Like I paid like 50 % to hold an editor before and then I couldn't deliver. This was early, early on and they were furious with me because they had let go other people to fulfill that. So I would also say, you know, as you're going along in the contracting world, if you've not done that before, you need to be pretty set on when you can deliver.

too because these people, this is usually their full-time job.

Angela Haas (09:46)
Yes, yeah. Yeah, you have to be very aware of your deadlines. And I think most people, there's been times when I, within a few days, let them know, hey, it was supposed to be Friday, it's coming Monday, and I stuck to that. I think there's some grace, but yeah, you have to, if.

Cassie Newell (09:46)
So.

Yeah, and you have to give them grace.

If you're late, they're going to be late. They don't have to, you know, get to your timeline because you didn't too. So I don't know. I was kind of, I don't know. There's a lot of people and companies you can go to for a lot of services, but I'm just kind of curious. Do you have any horror stories that you've learned from like that? Like I just admitted. ⁓ no.

Angela Haas (10:09)
Right.

Yeah, exactly.

Did you see my eye twitch?

yes, I I've had some horror stories with editors and I'm excited. Our next guest is Alice Sedlow and she's gonna talk all about the editing world and how to vet editors a little better, which I needed in the beginning. But I had an editor who just so unresponsive just would take weeks to answer an email.

And at first I thought they weren't even available, but I had used them before. And that's what's hard is I used them before. They were super great. And then something changed in the space between my first book and second book. And it was like a completely different person, but I kept hanging on thinking, it must be me. I got to give them a chance. There's something going on. But that was the first red flag in that.

they would take weeks, maybe a month to answer a question in an email. I come from the business world. It's 24 to 48 hours, 72 if you send your email on the weekend. authors, they're a little bit more creative. They don't necessarily stick to that. But I think you have every right to ask that upfront. Like typically,

Cassie Newell (11:34)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (11:49)
How do you communicate best? What's your turnaround time for answering questions and get a feel for it then? Rather than I I kept sending email after email and then finally had to text this person. And they were like, yeah, I'm getting on it. What they would also do was kind of triple book themselves and forget whose was whose that they were working on. Then once we were in the thick of it,

Cassie Newell (12:12)
⁓ my gosh. No.

Angela Haas (12:17)
they were rewriting my book the way they wanted without track changes on. So there were some track changes, but then there was a lot where I had to do some research and compare to, know, compare my original draft with my second draft. And I was like, I did not write this whole section. I did not make my protagonist speak.

Cassie Newell (12:23)
no.

Angela Haas (12:40)
so that there's an exclamation point after every piece of dialogue. This is not my work. And I had to start over on 100K manuscript and find a new editor and then start over with a new editor when I had already made so many changes. So.

Cassie Newell (12:51)
my God, that is a horror story.

So

I do have a piece of advice around editors. Currently, I adore my current editor that I use the most. But I consistently work with three different editors because availability. I also, if I can, I try to keep the same editor in a series just because they've seen the previous work. And then you kind of get this establishment.

Angela Haas (13:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (13:27)
So that's been helpful. I have one editor that's just really good on the developmental side of things, but I don't need that as much anymore. So I haven't used them in a while, but they also do proofreading, which I've done. ⁓ So I do think for people that are really churning and burning, or even if you're just starting out, meeting and getting to know

Angela Haas (13:34)
Right.

Sure.

Cassie Newell (13:52)
editors and their different services is good to have more than one for that reason right there.

Angela Haas (13:58)
Yes, yeah. Yes,

absolutely. Because sometimes you need an edit on a certain timeline and they're just not available for months. You kind of have to plan ahead. What I do is when I know I'm getting close, I put out feelers and say, hey, I'm getting close on this one. Here's the word count a prox.

Cassie Newell (14:07)
They're not available, yeah.

Angela Haas (14:20)
What's when is your next availability? And if I know it's going to be three months, then I can figure something else out. So yeah, I think doing I wish I had done a little bit more homework on the front end. I wish I would have asked for editing samples and really done more of a zoom call to say what's your style? How do you communicate? How fast do you turn things around? I should have done that ⁓ before.

Cassie Newell (14:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Angela Haas (14:49)
because

sometimes we feel like I've got to get this thing edited and I've got to get it done. Taking a little bit more time to vet an editor will save you time and money and rewrites in the end. yeah.

Cassie Newell (14:59)
Yeah, yeah, I

had one editor who was also my coach in the very, very beginning, which was brilliant. And then he ended his company. And so I didn't have him for the last book. And I was just like, you know, like, what am I going to do? But, know, at the end of the day, it works out. I don't know. I find editing kind of difficult. It's interesting because I'm a designer, so I get

Angela Haas (15:10)
Hmmmm

Cassie Newell (15:28)
people who get really frustrated with book cover design. And I've never been frustrated yet. And I, I don't design all of my covers by myself. Actually, Magic, the very first one, no, sorry, the second book cover is the one I bought that was a pre-made and then I made all the others match because I loved it. And then I got the designer involved and we kind of did it together. But,

I don't like illustrating covers very much. mean, I do a little bit, but I hired out for that. don't know. It's interesting when people would come to me, they're like frustrated with book covers and things like that, which can be really frustrating for those. How have you managed book covers? What have you done?

Angela Haas (15:57)
Yeah.

Well, my superhero series, I used Jeff Brown graphics and he is so amazing and so talented. He does a lot of covers for really like Treadpub authors. And I just loved because he illustrates it. And when he was doing first strike, I was amazed at how I was just describing what I wanted and he's just

absolutely sketching it in front of my eyes. And he really specializes in fantasy and sci-fi covers. But he's a little more expensive. I was in this feeling like go big or go home, cover is everything, you've got to invest, which I still stand by, but I don't think you need to spend as much. I ended up having to redesign it anyway because it was

Cassie Newell (16:59)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (17:07)
not selling to the right reader because it was reading so sci-fi and not superhero and superhero. From then, this happened at when we went to what is now Author Nation. It was 20 books to 50K and we started talking to Kathleen Sweeney at Book Brush and she designs covers. And I was telling her my plight and I just...

I just love her anyway and hoping we can get her to come on the show. the book brush started, they just did like mockups and they have expanded into so many other services. So that's another recommendation that I can touch on in a little bit, but they do book covers that don't use AI and that's another whole other bag of worms. If you want to use AI on your cover, there are risks associated with that, but

they don't use AI and you keep the rights to your covers and they designed some pretty amazing covers for my superhero series. So, and then for the romance, I love any at yummy book covers, yummy book covers and they are yummy and she's an illustrator.

but I love it because she gives you some marketing materials. She'll make a special couple for you that's just for you. And she did a really great job. people are going to listen to this. Are you openly designing book covers or are you just really offering the pre-mades with book litical right now?

Cassie Newell (18:37)
So

I have three full-time clients who come to me and one of them, her book covers out and it looks so good. I love it so much. So it's NLBlandford, if you want to check out and you like thrillers. Looks really good, Escaping Victoria. But my company is called Booklytical Designs. I actually kind of just shut it down for pre-mades at this point.

Angela Haas (18:54)
Hmm.

Cassie Newell (19:00)
because my other clients kind of keep me busy. And then of course I'm tappling all the time. So it gives me energy to create. I also, I am a huge fan of pre-mades because, and I'm going to give some tips here real quick. pre-mades, can find them like on any of, most companies will have pre-mades like the book cover designer has a lot, Miblart, Desmona.

Angela Haas (19:05)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (19:27)
You're not really going to find those on Fiverr because those are contractors trying to get your money and do it that way. But when you find the opportunity for a premade and you're like, that looks great, but the title won't work. You know, they'll change the title, of course. However, you can always buy that and tell them to take the typography off. You could, because if you think your title might change or you don't know your pen name, maybe you want to add things.

Angela Haas (19:50)
Mm.

Cassie Newell (19:56)
do that later with someone else or even yourself if you wanted, but you can buy a pre-made and have them a change a main color, not a lot of colors, and you can have them remove all the typography on it. That doesn't hurt anybody's feelings because they've sold a pre-made and there's a lot. I mean, I can't even list them all of groups in Facebook that they'll do seasonal.

Angela Haas (20:09)
Mm, that's good to know.

Yeah.

Cassie Newell (20:20)
pre-mades and boy you better be on it because those things go like hotcakes. And usually there are people that started a design and left it and then the artist just completed it and changed it or what have you. So they're just selling them and usually at a discount. That's the other benefit of pre-mades. They're always a little cheaper because you can't do a lot of personalization on them because then they become custom. They're no longer really quote a pre-made. So

Angela Haas (20:24)
Right.

Cassie Newell (20:45)
Yeah, I took my website down and just started doing things through Instagram for that. And Instagram has a ton of book cover artists that you can find independently and then either go to their website or purchase through their Instagrams. And you can just kind of scan them and see what's available. I've done that four different times. I'm also that person when I get an idea because I'm visual, I want the book cover. So

Angela Haas (21:13)
Yes,

I absolutely.

Cassie Newell (21:14)
I may buy a cheaper

book cover and it may never actually get on the book. But I get it and I have it. Like it just, helps inspire me and sometimes a lot of the time it'll matriculate into the actual cover, but not always. I have so many. So yeah.

Angela Haas (21:31)
Yes, yeah.

Let's talk about though, lot of people use Milblart. I have not heard good things sometimes about them. I think it's I think it's hit or miss to be honest.

Cassie Newell (21:37)
Mm-hmm.

It's hit or miss because they have a they

have a they have a whole company full of different designers. Yeah.

Angela Haas (21:51)
Yes. And so sometimes when I think you can get unlimited changes, but the problem is, what I experienced with some of the author friends we have is they'd send it back to just get a small revision and something comes back completely different because it's a whole new designer. So it's not going to be, that's just word to, you know,

Cassie Newell (21:58)
Mm.

Yeah.

Angela Haas (22:17)
our listeners. It's not always the same designer. I experienced that with 100 covers as well. And again, we are not being critical. I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just sharing my experience because I know some people have used 99 designs, 100 covers, mobile art and had stunning covers come out of it. I think it depends on what you want. But when I had a cover idea,

and I tried to use a hundred covers because I got a promo. They use like real like models that they're taking photos of and It just wasn't working for what I needed because I needed, superheroes on the cover and that just was really tough. But if it's sort of beautiful typography and some background images, like if you're a fantasy,

Cassie Newell (22:59)
you

Angela Haas (23:07)
Thriller, I think maybe those are easier, but it did not work for what I needed for the sci-fi at the time. That's just... Yeah.

Cassie Newell (23:15)
I will say one of the one thing

I really like if you don't know what you want in your cover is to do a contest in 99 designs. I've done that too. And I've participated as a designer. But what's really nice is you pick your level and you give briefs and you give details of what you think you want.

Angela Haas (23:23)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (23:39)
You could be really honest, you can say I'm shopping for a unique design or it needs to fit X, Y, and Z genre tropes, but I'm not quite sure what I want it to be. This is what's in my book, blah, blah, blah. And then different designers will pitch and give you designs to choose from. you'll have a timeline in which you're reviewing those designs, you're picking your top 10, then you're picking your top five. You may get up to 50 different designs.

Angela Haas (23:39)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (24:05)
Then you're going to pick your top 10, your top five. Then you'll start to give them revisions on what you would like for their independent designs. And then you pick a winner. And that's how they win the money in those contests. And I find those really good when I don't quite know what I want. But for me, if I see it and then I'll know it. So there might be some people out there that might be like, but I don't know.

Angela Haas (24:23)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Cassie Newell (24:30)
You don't have to know everything, but doing it that way, you get a bucket of designers, you know, versus just shopping. So.

Angela Haas (24:33)
Right?

Yep.

Yes, yes. And I think, again, it's gonna help you to do a little more research on the front end, but just to have an understanding that some covers are better done by different people, you know? So, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I guess I should probably.

Cassie Newell (24:56)
Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I dabble in illustration, but I'm not gonna do it. Like I might have a few pre-mades,

but I'm not gonna like take on a custom client, because I just don't feel confident.

Angela Haas (25:10)
Yeah, I guess I should show my book and you should probably too, but like this is yummy book covers and she just did such a great job integrating the logo, got all that stuff made a little cute baking thing. And then I have all this template that I can use for my own marketing. that's yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (25:16)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah, you want all your assets. You should be able

to have all your licenses and all your assets. Yeah, there's a lot of particulars. I think that way also about coaching too. for example, Author Accelerator, through their program, you can become a coach. think Christina Stanley has her program. You can become a coach and an editor. Like there are all these different programs.

Angela Haas (25:46)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (25:54)
And when you're looking for a coach, you know, you you want to find their zone of genius, right to support whatever you're trying to get out of that coaching relationship. And some coaches I think you can find certainly on Readsie, but through Author Accelerator, which is part of Jeannie Nash's program, they have I will match you with a coach, depending on what your need is. And like you can put in what you're looking for and the coaches that are

Angela Haas (26:00)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Cassie Newell (26:20)
a part of the program who've graduated or certified and said, this is my business model and these are the people I'm going to help, you get connected and you either test a few out and have conversations or not, however you want to do that. But yeah, I think those are really good too in terms of services. I think there are just so many things in the indie world to think about.

Angela Haas (26:44)
What are you si-

Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (26:48)
it can get a little overwhelming.

Angela Haas (26:48)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (26:50)
And sometimes hiring a coach is really helpful to go, okay, what should I do for an editing standpoint? What should I do for a book covers marketing? There's services for that too. You know, for ARCs and ALCs, like all these things, there's so many different services. It can be a little overwhelming, but really nuts to bolts. It's really,

Angela Haas (27:11)
Right.

Cassie Newell (27:14)
about your budget, what you're naturally good at and comfortable with, and what you should hire out.

Angela Haas (27:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes. And speaking of coaches though, mean, a coach can help with different things. My first writing coach was not a total coach that helped me look at, the business side, putting the novel together. She was just helping me stitch a novel together from scratch.

And, but you have had coaches before where they're your weekly or whenever you're meeting cheerleaders, as far as like, here's a problem I'm having in my business as an author and how do I work through this? I will say if you're hiring just for a writing coach, it is helpful if they're reading and really fluent in the genre you're writing in because, and that,

may seem like maybe that is common sense. But again, when I connected with someone who happened to be a writing coach and I really was looking for help as far as like, I didn't know how to do the three act structure. I was just starting and she helped talk out almost every scene, every act, putting it all together, following the hero's journey. And then when I went to romance, couldn't

really use her anymore because she doesn't read romance at all. So I kind of outgrew it anyway because I started to trust myself and you learn, but there are other coaches that can help you with everything, not just writing. So yeah, it depends on what you need.

Cassie Newell (28:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I talk through just

outline building with people. I talk through idea building. And then I do I love having a creative coach for my business ⁓ in support. And at that time, when I started that I was really digging into Clifton strengths to really understand myself too. So it was kind of a two point bonus to do it that way. But yeah, absolutely.

Angela Haas (29:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. we've talked about, mean, coaching, editing, cover designer, those are huge pieces, but web design, marketing help. You know, I have used Dan Wilcox. Hi, Dan. I wish you were listening. Devil's Rock Publishing, and he does phenomenal web design.

And then he can also help integrate your email list too. So I had to give Dan a shout out, he actually was able to work my website. So it's choose your own adventure. So it's over here for the superheroes and over here for the romance, which I love because I decided not to go to a pen name, but he's so great about meeting with you and talking things out.

word of mouth is really good on that one because Dan was recommended from a writer's group. Otherwise I wouldn't have known really how to find him. So yeah.

Cassie Newell (30:12)
Yeah, word and

mouth is really great. That's how I found Redleaf Word Services and my current editor.

Angela Haas (30:17)
We love Amy. Hello Amy.

Cassie Newell (30:22)
And she's, I've gotten to the point where I like try to book out six months in advance. Like I'm, I'm that person. And I'm like constantly like, okay, I'm a little or I'm ahead or I'm switching projects like I'm doing for now. I'm like, you were expecting these, but I'm gonna do this. If that's okay, you know, kind of thing. ⁓ But yeah, the other thing I was going to mention is that Joanna Penn and Jane Friedman,

Angela Haas (30:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (30:49)
I would also say are great people to keep on top of and be a part of their newsletters and activities because they really kind of give you insight into the industry. I think Jane Friedman, she has a free one, but she also has a paid newsletter. But that's what she does. She stays on top of the industry as a whole. Her end of year stuff is fabulous. So yeah, I think just being on top of

Angela Haas (30:50)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Cassie Newell (31:16)
The industry itself is really helpful in terms of services. And I mean, it's like with working with any contractor, you got to vet them, do your due diligence the best you can, and then go forward and learn from it. Also, as you said, personality-wise, you've just got to test it. I think that's the same too with finding an agent.

Angela Haas (31:27)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (31:44)
talks about, you know, finding an agent and I've pitched to a couple of agents and you have to like, you're trying to find that match and personality of what they want, you know, what you're trying to also shop and develop a relationship with somebody that's hopefully going to be there for your entire career and not just one book, you know, kind of thing. So it's all about that as well. Yeah.

Angela Haas (32:02)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

yeah, taking a little more time. That's what I wish I would have told my past self. Take a little time, do a little more research, and then, but sometimes things change while you're in the middle of something. And I would say before you sign a contract, you definitely need to read all the fine print. There's been times I've been guilty of not doing that. And I would be a little alarmed if you're

Unless it's a friend because I've done things with friends We're not signing contracts because we're colleagues and we're grown-ups and we're not gonna stiff each other but you know, there's been times when I was expecting a contract from someone and They just didn't do their business like that. And I'm like, it protects both of us when you're using a service You know, you can build some stuff in that

Cassie Newell (32:53)
Yeah, you don't get a lot of those for

book covers so much unless it's custom and development. Yeah.

Angela Haas (32:58)
No, not book covers, but yeah, no, I'm saying

like other services, like editing and coaching and web design and different things. mean, there's, should, you know, I've actually appreciated someone who has had a formal contract in the way that they do things and collect payments. just means that they're pretty organized. Not saying that someone who's less formal isn't, but

Cassie Newell (33:06)
Mm.

Right.

Angela Haas (33:26)
Yeah, just see how they run their business too. That might change how you're doing things with them. yeah. Yes. ⁓

Cassie Newell (33:33)
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, this is definitely a great kickoff for the month.

I was going to ask you, what are your personal updates for, gosh, what is this, May 14th? So, or the 15th?

Angela Haas (33:49)
⁓ Yeah,

yeah, have I have one other recommendation though that I didn't two other yeah, no, it's fine. I just wanted to make sure We were on Jeff Elkins podcast the Dialogue Doctor People you should go find the Dialogue Doctor we'll leave link for his website But Jeff has so many great services

Cassie Newell (33:55)
I'm sorry, I went too quickly.

Angela Haas (34:15)
He does some coaching. He'll do live on air where he dissects a scene with you. I did that once and it was so helpful. I learned in real time. He does dialogue dashes where it's, weeks of putting together a book, writing, editing. I learned so much doing that. He also has a community around him. So dialogue doctor dot com can join his Patreon for like two dollars a month.

Cassie Newell (34:40)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (34:40)
And

if you're just starting out, that's a great thing to do. I also would look at, Grey's Promo, introduced me to them, word of mouth, they're a division of Valentine PR. They were so helpful when I was launching my romance because I just needed that off my plate. They found ARC readers, they did the blurb reveal, the cover reveal and all that kind of stuff. And

That was so helpful to have the graphics done and just know that even though there's a cost, which I thought was very reasonable, that part was handled. And I got a lot of reviews that were really good when I launched my romance. So Grey's Promotions, also something very useful. Yes.

Cassie Newell (35:16)
Yeah.

And you know, I found them through

a book that was being promoted by Valentine's. It was Candy Steiner's. And I was like, let me check this out. So watch other authors when they're launching and see what services they're using too. And I would recommend Penpal PR and Torchlit as well. They're smaller, but I don't know. I enjoyed them because

Angela Haas (35:38)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.

Cassie Newell (35:54)
I got to keep all my ARC reviewers in my mailing list too. you know, there's lots of opportunity for different groups out there for sure.

Angela Haas (36:05)
Yes, yes. and we'll, yeah, again, we'll put a nice thing together in the show notes of all our recommendations. So yeah, cool. I just had to get those two in.

Cassie Newell (36:16)
No worries. So let me rewind.

So any personal updates?

Angela Haas (36:20)
Well, I have finished my second romance and that feels really good. So getting that off to editing and I, you and I have talked about this. I'm like, which one do I start next? I have so many ideas and I'm like, oh no, which one do I do? I know it was really helpful. So has really just catching up on marketing.

Cassie Newell (36:39)
And I'm so opinionated about it.

Angela Haas (36:49)
Although I was able to hire an assistant finally, which is helping so much. But just figuring out I want to, I don't want any lag time, I want to get to starting something else. So I've just got to figure that out. So what about you? What are you working on?

Cassie Newell (37:04)
So

I get my first 15 minute audiobook listen to approve for Buttercream and Second Beginnings. So I'm super excited about that. And then my special edition anthology for my store is launching at the same time. So yeah, because I am. That's OK. I wasn't producing the audio. That would be high.

Angela Haas (37:14)
exciting

my gosh, because you're crazy, but that's okay. You're kind of bored.

Hahaha!

Cassie Newell (37:31)
Gravity Productions.

Thank you. And so I'm really excited to have the anthology with all four books in that first series come out. That's super exciting to me. I can't wait for that and see how it does. And then hopefully, fingers crossed, my novels with my editor and it's going well, hopefully.

Yay, all right,

let's do our table topics.

Angela Haas (37:57)
This is a good one. All right, let's see. What's the wildest party you've been to?

Yes, I want the gory details. We all do.

Cassie Newell (38:07)
The list to choose from, I'm not sure. Do we go back to high school when I shouldn't have been partying like an animal? College or my bachelorette party? Like, I don't know.

Angela Haas (38:19)
my, I am really intrigued about the bachelorette party. Was the thunder from Down Under there? I guessed it! I did not know that, everyone. Okay.

Cassie Newell (38:27)
yeah!

We went to a club

actually. We had paraphernalia on us as well. And of course I was noted as the bride to be with a button, not a sash. It wasn't the age of the sashes yet. And I was very uncomfortable, but I went with it.

Angela Haas (38:36)
⁓

Yeah, they

put like oil on themselves. I wouldn't know because I've never been.

Cassie Newell (38:50)
Yeah, it was an interesting

time. It got a little wild. ⁓

Angela Haas (38:55)
Okay.

with

like a bridesmaid or is that are those records sealed?

Cassie Newell (39:02)
Yeah, like I

didn't think they could touch me and they were touching me. And I was just like, if you're gonna touch me. So it got a little wild.

Angela Haas (39:06)
⁓ no. Yeah.

⁓ Cassie. Yeah,

suddenly warm in here. Wow. I know, but where it's the middle of the day. Just kidding. Okay. Well, mine was always college because I went to, I started my college career at the University of Northern Colorado.

Cassie Newell (39:16)
Yeah. Really? You bright romance.

Angela Haas (39:33)
and there was an exchange program with a Hawaiian university. So we had a lot of Hawaiian students and some of them taught me to hula dance, but they would throw parties that, I mean, just trash cans full of jungle juice, which was just a collection, a melange of...

Cassie Newell (39:47)
Awesome.

all the alcohol

and some Kool-Aid.

Angela Haas (40:01)
Yeah, I don't know. We did put some fruit in it just to feel like we were getting some vitamin C and some benefits, And then there was always a frat house that threw a disco party. And I love disco. Everything that I am, I just would do disco parties all the time.

Those got a little wild, but it was the Hawaiian parties that I'll never, never forget. Those were so much fun. So, yeah, cool.

Cassie Newell (40:31)
I used to go to karaoke parties,

all the frat and sorority parties. I was a wild child.

Angela Haas (40:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, actually I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. I was only because, I mean, I'm from Green Mountain Falls, Colorado. People are like, where's that? And it's like, exactly. It's not on, they didn't even bother to put it on maps because they're like, it's too small. No one cares. There's not even a gas station. So why bother? You know? So when I got to a college situation,

where I was like, I'm on my own with 40,000 other people. I went hog wild. just as far as, know, just like, wow, I am unsupervised on the weekends. I can just do whatever I want and it was just fun. My freshman year was pretty fun.

Cassie Newell (41:09)
Right.

Yeah, I think I did

more crazy, irresponsible things as a high schooler, which is so funny because my daughters were so not like me, thank God. And yeah, and then I got to college and it was just kind of like, okay, I don't need to do this stupid, stupid stuff, but I can still have fun. So yeah, I don't know.

Angela Haas (41:30)
Mmm.

Right.

I lived

up a mountain pass, you're just kind of living in the woods. And so I couldn't sneak out and do anything. I'd probably be attacked by a bear and it was a 30 minute drive down to the city. So I couldn't be too irresponsible.

Cassie Newell (41:46)
Yeah.

there wasn't a lot. I was

in high school in Oklahoma and there wasn't a lot, but we would get, I don't know how we get them, but we would get kegs and go by the lake. And it would just be, yeah, a party at the lake. know, so anyway. All right, let's wrap up. So I'm gonna say thank you for joining us today.

Angela Haas (42:05)
yeah.

Mm.

fun.

Cool. That's cool. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (42:23)
let us know how you find great people to work with. Definitely let us know who they are. Don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you listen to the podcast. It really helps with visibility. Next week we're talking to Alice Sudlow about how to find and work with a great editor. So until next time, keep writing, keep doing.

Angela Haas (42:40)
Bye!