← Previous · All Episodes · Next →
Episode 21: Choosing the Right Editor with Alice Sudlow Episode 21

Episode 21: Choosing the Right Editor with Alice Sudlow

· 54:23

|

Cassie Newell (00:17)
Welcome to episode 21. I'm Cassie Newell and I'm here with my co-host Angela Haas. This month we're talking all about how to find the right professionals. This episode we're talking about editing and how to work with an editor with Alice Sudlow.

Alice is a developmental editor, a book coach for experienced fiction writers doing the hard work of revising their stories to excellence. She is an expert at helping writers craft the most powerful version of their stories by making every scene unput downable. She's also the host of your next draft podcast where she interviews authors about their editing processes and guides writers through the messy and joys of revision.

Angela Haas (00:43)
you

Cassie Newell (01:01)
Welcome, Alice. It's so nice to meet you and to have you on the podcast.

Alice (01:05)
Thank you, thank you so much for having me here, I'm excited.

Cassie Newell (01:08)
All right, so let's talk about how does one find a good editor, like just the basic questions. What should they look out for?

Angela Haas (01:12)
You

Alice (01:20)
love this question, it's a bit of a soapbox that I like to get on because there are, okay, there's so many editors out there and there are so many good editors out there and there are also so many people who put out their shingle as an editor and they are, I'll

Cassie Newell (01:28)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (01:37)
just say they're not the greatest, they're not exceptional and it's really tricky to see.

Cassie Newell (01:40)
Right.

Angela Haas (01:41)
you

Alice (01:44)
to figure out who's going to be the right professional for you. There are just so many people, there are no standardizations in this industry, there's no standard of training, there are no standard certifications. So really anyone can say that they're an editor, which is something that has its pros and cons. It's really cool for anyone to be able to break into this career, it's really cool for anyone to be able to design how they work best with their writers. But on the flip side, it really sets up

Cassie Newell (01:49)
All

Alice (02:11)
authors for a lot of risk in trying to figure out who you want to work with. And I hear horror stories all the time from writers who come from various experiences with editors. I talked with a writer just this week where I asked him about his previous experiences with editors. And he told me, I think, four or five different horror stories that he's had working with editors. And I was like, I am so honored that you're on this call with me right now because

Cassie Newell (02:13)
Yeah.

my gosh.

Angela Haas (02:36)
Mmm.

Cassie Newell (02:39)
wow.

Alice (02:40)
I would understand if he wanted nothing more to do with this profession. And he had so much optimism. He was like, I'm sure that I'm sure I'm going to find a great editor someday. And I was like, I'm so glad that you're still in these trenches, which is all to say it's really challenging. And I really understand it when authors find this difficult to navigate. So how should you find an editor? That's such a big, broad question. I'm going to break it down a little bit.

Cassie Newell (02:50)
Yeah.

Alice (03:04)
I think the first thing to look at is you've got to know what you're looking for in an editor because the word editor means so many different things. The industry definitions of various terms, they get muddled, they're not clear. It's complicated when you're just getting started looking for an editor to know what even is an editor. That means anything from an acquisitions editor who's working in a publishing house.

to a line editor who's refining the words and the sentences, to a copy editor who's working on the kind of technical aspects of grammar and syntax, to a proofreader who's cleaning up copy, to a video editor or someone who edits podcasts. Like you type in editing jobs in Google and I'm like three quarters of these results are not even relevant to me. So you need to know what you're looking for. Let's just start there. Like you've got to figure out what it is that you need.

Cassie Newell (03:32)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (03:33)
All right.

Cassie Newell (03:43)
Right.

Alice (03:55)
I think that the first thing to think about there is what does your story need? What does your manuscript need? What are your strengths and weaknesses as a writer? And what kind of process have you taken your manuscript through in order to get it to the point where it is now? Have you done a lot of story structure work on the story? Have you gotten?

Cassie Newell (04:01)
Mm.

Alice (04:17)
Critique partners to help you with that story. Have you gotten good beta reader feedback to suggest that the story structure is really working or have you not done some some deep work on the structure of the story if You're still at that point where there are some structural problems with the story or structural challenges that need to be shored up You're going to want a developmental editor if you're feeling like if you're getting good feedback that the story structure is working

Cassie Newell (04:36)
Right.

Alice (04:43)
then maybe it's a line editor or a copy editor, maybe you're ready to move into more production stages, but before that, first off, you just gotta know which kind of editor you're looking for and what your manuscript needs. And from there, the other major, major thing that I wanna throw out here is you've also got to know what your values are as a writer. I think...

Cassie Newell (05:03)
⁓

Angela Haas (05:04)
Yes. Yeah.

Alice (05:06)
that that's a really important piece that has come to feel really obvious to me as an editor, but I don't think that it's obvious to writers who are just getting started looking for editors.

Cassie Newell (05:17)
We'll talk about values. What do you mean by that?

Alice (05:19)
So values are, there are a lot of values that apply here,

but the big three for me that are like the top ones that I'm thinking about are the amount of time that you want to spend on a particular manuscript, on a particular book, the amount of money that you want to invest in that book, and the quality of the result that you want to put out at the end. Like what will you consider the book that you're really proud of and ready to share with the world?

Cassie Newell (05:34)
Sure.

Alice (05:45)
And you get to decide that. There's not one right answer to any of those things. There's not one correct amount to spend or one correct amount of time that every writer should spend on a book. There's not one metric of this is the book that's worthy of putting on the shelves. There are all kinds of different types of books in the world. There are, there's the great Gatsby and then there's like the next Harlequin romance novel and readers buy both of them. Like there's not a right or wrong here. It's, but it is really important.

Cassie Newell (05:47)
Right.

Sure.

Right.

Alice (06:13)
for you to know where you stand, what you value within those three kinds of categories, because it will impact the, it'll impact so many things. It'll impact how you want to engage with each stage of editorial production. Do you want to hire every single kind of editor? Do you want to walk through every stage? Or do you have a limited budget and you want to get really targeted, get the highest impact feedback, and then be okay if there are little errors down the line.

Cassie Newell (06:41)
Right.

Alice (06:41)
Do you want to make this your magnum opus and spend like years, literally years, I'm not gonna like sugarcoat here, do you want to spend years and years working on a single manuscript to make it the

Angela Haas (06:51)
.

Alice (06:52)
best that you can possibly create? Or are you aiming for a more quick production cycle? Do you want to put out like one book a year or one book every two years or one book every six months? Do you need an editor who can move at that pace with you, who can really kind of produce content and turn it around quickly? Even if you both know, you know, we're not trying to write the great Gatsby here, that's not our goal.

Cassie Newell (07:06)
Right.

Right.

Alice (07:11)
So, and I think that kind of shows the balance here of how they each kind of pull against each other, time and money and quality. Of course, we would all like to spend the least amount of time and the least amount of money and end up with the highest quality book in the world. And that's just, these are like sliders that we calibrate and.

Cassie Newell (07:17)
Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Alice (07:31)
Like that expectation that you spend no money and no time and you end up with a masterpiece is unrealistic. But you get to pick which of those is most important to you. And I don't think you need to know this right out of the gate. I don't think you're going to walk into your search for an editor knowing I have X budget and X time and X quality standards. You're going to figure it out as you go. But I think if you can even walk into the search with a little bit of a sense of your priorities, you'll be better prepared to find editors who are aligned

Cassie Newell (07:45)
Mm.

Right.

Alice (08:00)
More with what you're seeking and then as you go through that experience you'll start to notice, okay, this is what I really value, this is what didn't work for me and you'll be better prepared to identify where the gap was where the editor wasn't a good fit for you. Maybe their timeline wasn't the same. I'm a very slow editor, like I love going slowly through manuscripts. I love going slowly through books. I think there's so much that we can uncover in the developmental process if we take months or even a year to go through the manuscript together.

And I'm very conscious that doesn't work for everyone. So I'm very clear upfront that this is the kind of process that we're going to go through. And if that's exciting to you, if that like peak of quality is the most important thing and kind of time and budget are things that you're willing to expand in the pursuit of that quality, then I'm probably the right fit for you. If you're looking for a rapid release kind of support, I'm not the right fit for you. I'm not gonna be able to do that with you. And we're both gonna feel like this little tension about I'm just not delivering what you need.

Cassie Newell (08:30)
Right.

Right.

Yeah, and I think

as a value add, I think you have to know yourself and how much experience you have to so from me day one, you know, first publication in 2016, a very different discussion with my editors versus today's editing. What do you think Angela, do you feel like your values are have changed a little bit since you started?

Angela Haas (09:17)
No, but they haven't changed, but I know what they are now. I didn't really know. And I, the word

The word priorities means a lot to me because I, my more of my experiences being, you know, a business manager, a retail manager and communication was so big for me. And that's a value. I think that's a priority. And it was always there for me, but I didn't know that

I could bring that into this industry as saying, I need really clear communication. And so when I was working with an editor that took probably sometimes three weeks a month to answer a question I had in an email, that was so frustrating to me. And my values are, well, if you send an email,

Usually it's 24 to 48 hours for a response, 72 over the weekends. And even though that's my priority, that's not necessarily how everyone communicates. I guess too, you have to decide, okay, maybe what are my top two? And this one I can let go. And for me, communication is huge. Pace I can work with.

Cassie Newell (10:21)
Right.

Angela Haas (10:35)
But if we're not communicating, that I know is gonna lead to problems down the road.

Cassie Newell (10:40)
Yeah, that's interesting that you said that. think let's talk about communication because I find editors and writers have different styles of communicating. like, Alice, would you talk about that? Like, what are the best ways writers can communicate effectively with an editor?

Alice (10:57)
Wow, that's a great question and it's a big question and I just, have to come back every time to there are no standards in this industry, which is what makes this so challenging. And I'm speaking specifically about, I think this is important to clarify, I'm speaking specifically about editing when you're working with an independent editor before you go into a traditional publishing house. Like it's a different beast to go into.

Cassie Newell (11:06)
Sure.

Angela Haas (11:07)
Yeah.

Alice (11:20)
the traditional publishing sphere and then have the publisher kind of navigating those interactions for you. But when you're hiring a professional, this is really what I'm talking about. I think that first off, it's great to ask the editor what their communication habits are, what their communication expectations are. Editors.

Cassie Newell (11:36)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (11:38)
really vary in this just as much as people do. There are some editors who are really sharp and on the ball and who are really responsive to emails. There are some editors who prefer written communication to audio communication to video or like Zoom calls or anything. And these are all things that are really, really good to talk with your editor about and to find out if they have any kind of team to support them. I...

Cassie Newell (11:47)
Right.

Alice (12:02)
I am trash at email, I'm the worst at email. Email is my kryptonite. So I hired a virtual assistant so that she can manage my inbox for me and that made everyone happier. Like it was just bad before I had support on that. But to know, okay, like

Angela Haas (12:06)
Okay.

Alice (12:16)
how is the editor navigating, communicating with their writers, with their clients? And then also, I think that...

Video versus written versus call, all those different ways of either getting feedback or communicating more broadly with the editor, that's a good thing to ask about. And this I'm speaking specifically from a developmental editing background and a book coaching background because as you go farther down the line to line editing and then copy editing and then proofreading, face-to-face communication or on the phone communication,

Angela Haas (12:35)
.

Alice (12:47)
is going to be less and less and less important. You get down to copy editing and proofreading, and it's not really necessary. It might be something that an editor offers, but it's probably not going to be a core part of their process. But for developmental editing, for certainly book coaching, you're going to expect a lot of on a call, on camera, of, or on the phone communication.

Cassie Newell (12:59)
Right.

Alice (13:08)
And I think that developmental and line editing kind of walk this line where you might get some face-to-face communication or you might not. And you might be in a position, these are great questions to ask because the landscape varies so widely. Are you going to be sending your manuscript to the editor and then waiting four weeks or six weeks or 12 weeks for them to send it back with comments and notes?

Is there going to be an avenue for you to ask questions about those comments after they give them to you? Or are you going to be waiting a shorter amount of time or getting on a call with them to discuss questions? Like how they give you their feedback, I think is just as important a question as like how you can interact with them over the course of course of your like collaboration together, because there are editors who really love and prefer.

Cassie Newell (13:51)
Right.

Alice (13:58)
written feedback, personally, I really hate written feedback and I'd much rather get on a call and talk it through. There are writers who really prefer written feedback and there are writers who really find it much easier to get on a call and talk things through. ⁓ And then knowing how long the process is going to be, if you're working basically with asynchronous kind of work, when can you expect an editor ⁓ to respond to you to answer a question?

these are all good.

and important questions to ask the editor or to see if they explain them to you or just be watching for it as you figure out, you know what, I need fast communication, I need email responsiveness, or I've got other projects that I'm working on, so I want to hand the manuscript off and wait for four weeks and then get the notes back and then have them in a batch to work with, or I really want support in the weeds as I'm going through this, so I want regular calls and regular feedback. These are all really good questions to ask.

Cassie Newell (14:48)
Mm.

Alice (14:52)
And I think that, I think broadly speaking, that's my first big thought is there's just so much variety here. One of the big important things is to know that there is a professional out there who fits the style that you want to work in. So if you think this doesn't work for me, that's not a sign that all of editing doesn't work for you. It's a sign that this professional isn't the right fit and know that there are so, so, so, so, so many ways that people work in this industry that there is someone who works.

Angela Haas (14:56)
Right.

Alice (15:18)
in the way that you want to work with them, it's just a matter of being able to find them on this vast internet. ⁓

Cassie Newell (15:24)
Right,

right.

Angela Haas (15:25)
Yeah, and that that's another problem though. How do you walk away when you know it's not a good fit? How does that work? Because I have worked with someone and it wasn't a good fit. And then I felt like

I'm just stuck with this person. That's where I've gotten in the weeds. And I had a person who was great on the first book, something happened on the second, almost a completely different process and person. And I had signed a contract, although I think nothing really happened because I did kind of part ways and you could...

Alice (15:41)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (16:00)
probably say, they didn't deliver on their end, so nothing bad happened. But I think that's scary sometimes when you're starting out. Because sometimes until you start working, you don't really know until you do get in the trenches with that person. And I had an editor who their feedback was like, I mean, I had paid $2,000 for developmental edit.

Cassie Newell (16:11)
sure.

Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (16:24)
pass on my manuscript. It took them two months and the comments I got back were, I sure hope the scene goes somewhere. Is it your intention that we don't like this character? Because it's working. And so I was like, okay, mean valid if like my character's flat, tell me. But there wasn't any real feedback. It was just these what felt to me like a criticism. Okay, you don't feel like the scene is going anywhere.

What's specifically about, you know, hey, I felt like there was enough conflict. Those are real tangible things I can work with. and then I kept overusing. the word smirk because when I'm drafting and like, just throw smirk in here, it's smirked. I get lazy and I'm like, it's smirked. And then, of course, because it was just overused.

Cassie Newell (16:58)
Right.

Yeah.

Angela Haas (17:12)
this editor thought I didn't know what the word meant. And so they kept putting like the definition, this is not a smirk. And then he goes, I'm really excited for you to learn what this word truly means at the end. And I was like, it's just overused, just highlight it and I'd be like, yeah, you know, I got to, I got to, Oh, it was like, this is crazy, but I felt like I had a contract, I couldn't get out of it. So

Cassie Newell (17:28)
Wow, that's kind of like talking down to you.

Alice (17:31)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (17:38)
How does, even if you can't walk away, how do you heal from that kind of experience?

Alice (17:44)
my goodness. mean, first off, I'm just so sorry. I feel

like this, this need to apologize for my profession at large. When I hear stories like this, there's such, I just, they're so common and I want to call out like particular things that I, that rubbed me wrong about that. The, I I get a sense of disrespect from that. I get a sense of disrespect towards you as an author, you as the creator and

Angela Haas (17:49)
Oh no. No, no.

Cassie Newell (17:50)
No, you don't. No, absolutely not.

Alice (18:11)
Also a lack of respect for the stage in your process that you're in. ⁓ What, yeah. It's not worth focusing on smirk until we get way farther down the line. it's just not necessary. That's not important. Knowing how to filter which pieces of feedback are actually relevant at the moment is a really big part of being an effective editor or a critique partner or beta reader, anyone. I think.

Angela Haas (18:15)
Alright, this is the first draft. This is rough draft.

Cassie Newell (18:32)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (18:33)
That's a good point.

Yeah, I know.

Alice (18:37)
Man, you got such good questions. I have tons of

thoughts up here. You're the authority over your story and your writing. And I think that that sense of authority over your story and over your writing at large and over your career

And that sense of authority as an author, the sense of authority as a creator, that takes time to build. It is, you know, I hear from people who are, they're kind of getting started writing, they've maybe written halfway through their first manuscript, or they've wanted to write for years and they're coming back to writing after a really long time, or they've written the manuscript, or they've written like five drafts of this manuscript, and they say like, I'm writing, I'm not a writer, but I'm writing.

And we can get into all of that like you are a writer if you're writing. Like that's like the definition of the word. You don't have to earn that title. But I think that that points to this sense of insecurity over ownership over your work and the sense that there's a different authority out there who knows better than you do what to do in your story. And I think that one of the risks

Angela Haas (19:35)
That's exactly it.

Alice (19:39)
I'll say with editing or pitfalls or challenges with working with a professional editor is walking in the door with this sense of that's the authority who knows things and I'm the novice who doesn't know things, which there are, you know, there are kernels of truth there. There are things that a trained professional knows that you probably haven't seen or experienced before. That's literally why you're hiring them. Like,

Cassie Newell (19:52)
Hmm.

Alice (20:04)
Why would you hire someone who doesn't have any more experience in story than you do? But that doesn't mean that you don't have, not only that you don't have like ideas or a legitimate perspective, it doesn't mean you don't have authority over the story and over the work. It doesn't mean that your judgment is flawed when it comes to being able to look at the feedback and say, that's not right. That's not helpful. That's not relevant at this point or that's misunderstanding my idea.

I think that especially at the developmental and the line stages where you're really working with what is the story idea and how do I figure out that story idea and get it on the page and then how do I choose the words that put that on the page in the most effective way when it's really about your story and your style. Those I think are the two most vulnerable places.

And so I think in terms of healing, the first thing that I want to say is just to say your instincts are right, your gut is right to say that that feedback is not

true, that it's not helpful, that it's not right for you. And it's totally valid for you to disregard those things that feel like a misunderstanding of your story or a disrespect towards your story or towards you as an author and to hold on to your ideas despite what some professional whom you've paid money has said. That doesn't mean that their ideas are more

valid or important or true than yours. think that's the first place to start is owning your authority, which is really hard to do and it takes time to build. That's not an easy thing. It's a thing that takes time.

Cassie Newell (21:33)
I also think you should look for clauses to get out of paying the money because that really irritates me that you feel like you have golden handcuffs that, okay, well, I paid this person, so I've got to listen to it. Well, I think the same thing about, you know, buying any good or any service, like we wouldn't put up without any other field.

Angela Haas (21:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Cassie Newell (21:57)
you know, for our

own personal but it's really different when you're creative. And I think it just takes time and experience to feel the ground under your feet to go this isn't working. I'm you may be great with other people, but this isn't working for me. So I'm going to request a refund, or a partial refund, and you're not getting the rest of your payment, and we're not moving forward. Like this.

This is not don't ask for a testimonial basically like we need to move on and as as a business person myself in a creative field actually on covers I fired a client and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done because My my coach at the time walked me through it. They were like this person is gaslighting you and I did not see it

Angela Haas (22:42)
No.

Cassie Newell (22:43)
And it sounds like that editor was gaslighting

you a little bit. And I just, I did not see it. And I was like, my God, you're right. But it was a friend of a really good friend. And I was like, this is going to be odd. And they were like, no, it's not. No, it's not. You're not the right fit. Here's your money back. We're done. I don't have the extra time that you require and what you need. I was like,

Okay, you know, it was a little difficult for me a few years ago to do something like that. But I do think people that are listening should feel empowered. It's your hard earned money for your creative outlook. As you said, you're the authority of it. And if it's not working, you need to be able to feel confident enough to back away and not lose that money that you could apply to another editor that could be the perfect fit.

Alice (23:29)
Absolutely, absolutely. will also say that personally, personally, I don't use contracts. I'm kind of like backing my way into kicking and screaming, no, I kind of have to write up a little something just so that we know things like what the refund policy is or what the cancellation policy is. I'm like, something's got to be written somewhere, but I don't use contracts. So there's not like a locked in in that way. So I can't really speak to exiting a contract, but I personally, as an editor,

Angela Haas (23:45)
Right.

Cassie Newell (23:30)
for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alice (23:57)
build in a lot of off ramps. So there are a lot of opportunities when you can pivot and say, hey, that was great. I'm going to go on with what I've gotten now and I'm not going to continue. No hard feelings. Like it's just a built in opportunity to be able to say, all right, that's everything I need or everything that we need or hey, whatever we did was okay, but it wasn't my favorite. So I'm going to take what we did and go somewhere else.

Cassie Newell (24:14)
Right.

Yeah, I don't have a contract with my current editor either.

Angela Haas (24:24)
Yeah.

Alice (24:24)
That's okay, that's okay.

I see a lot of things online that are like never work with an editor who doesn't have a contract. And I understand like where that's coming from because again, this is a really difficult industry, but I think that that's like a stand in for the true metric here, which is never work with an untrustworthy editor. And that's not necessarily defined by do they or don't they have a contract. That's a clue, but it's not a guarantee. So.

Cassie Newell (24:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Angela Haas (24:48)
Yeah, I had to really adjust to that because in business, it's always a contract. We sign, we sign contracts with people when we buy their goods.

based on payment terms, you know, there's always a contract because I learned it protects both of you. But I had to shift my thinking because I'm going into a more creative industry where people, like you said, aren't always vetted. And sometimes it's a good thing to not have a contract. Sometimes you don't need it. Cassie and I have used the same editor. We didn't need a contract because everything was so clear and everything was so

Cassie Newell (25:08)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (25:24)
upfront and she delivered what she promised and we didn't need it and then I had this other person who had like so much legal language and maybe that should have been a clue that maybe other people have had bad experiences and left I'm just creating a story here I don't know if this is fact but

Maybe they needed a contract just because so many people were bailing, mid process because of the way that they were giving feedback and working So who knows? But yeah.

Cassie Newell (25:50)
Yeah, I had

Alice (25:50)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (25:51)
one editor that I think they changed their processes, but they had a number of cancellations in their schedule and I was no better at the time and I did cancel and they were just like fuming and they were like, you know, I, this is a loss of work because I could have taken someone else. So now it's, it was 25 % down, you know, to secure your spot.

Angela Haas (25:57)
Thank

Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (26:19)
And if you canceled, they kept it, you know, kind of thing. And I, you know, I remember her, them talking about it. And I was like, I feel so bad. Here's 25%. Like I just, I knew I just, I was like, I'm not gonna make it. So, yeah, and now my competition pieces and my, my abilities will not let me really miss miss the timeline. So, but I think you kind of have to live and learn, you know, yeah.

It's really interesting, that piece.

Alice (26:50)
I think that that kind of instance, Cassie, is exactly where I'm slowly backing into contract space without wanting to. Because I work with really high touch services with a small number of clients, and my clients vet me, I vet my clients, once we start working together, we typically work together for a long time.

Angela Haas (26:56)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (26:58)
Yeah.

Alice (27:10)
When you've got that kind of relationship, you're in the kind of relationship where you probably don't need to lean on some legal language to explain how you're going to work together. But then as I'm starting to grow and having a larger client base, sometimes people have to cancel. Sometimes somebody gets sick or something comes up and it just doesn't happen.

Cassie Newell (27:26)
Right. Things happen.

Alice (27:31)
And I just started realizing just in order to manage the number of people that I'm working with, I do have to have some kind of policy written somewhere about what we're gonna do if somebody cancels. So that's where I'm like edging my way in. But it's built on, these are the little sticky moments that come up when you're working with clients and not built on like here is me trying to create some legalese to lock us both into something that we can't get out of.

Angela Haas (27:33)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (27:35)
Right.

Right, Interesting. So I have a question. What is the worst horror story you've ever heard about a writer and an editor? And from that story, what should listeners learn?

Angela Haas (27:56)
Right. Yeah.

Alice (28:11)
Okay, let me think for a second.

Cassie Newell (28:13)
you talk about this on your podcast, which we'll talk about later, but I'm just curious, like what's the worst? Although Angela's was pretty good.

Alice (28:21)
Yeah, it was.

Angela Haas (28:22)
I feel like I am a contender at this point.

Alice (28:26)
It was,

it was.

I'm struggling to nail down like one specific story, but I'll give you kind of the flags that are popping up to me just like screaming in my brain of how could they.

Cassie Newell (28:35)
Yeah.

Alice (28:37)
I think they all come down to misunderstanding the story. This is what really gets my goat when people are talking about working with editors. Editors giving advice in a prescriptive way that feels like it misunderstands the story.

Cassie Newell (28:41)
Really?

Alice (28:53)
I don't know how any

editor can make any effective recommendation without first understanding the vision that the author has for the story. I can tell you all kinds of changes. I can tell you changes for free for the sake of making things different, but I don't know if they are making things closer to what you are trying to do unless I fully understand your vision. And so what really, really bothers me is transactional editing that does not

Cassie Newell (29:04)
Sure.

Alice (29:19)
take into, does not create space for the editor to understand the author's vision and does not create space for the author to take ownership of their vision and express that to the editor and kind of, does it empower the author to take ownership over their story?

Cassie Newell (29:34)
Yeah.

I'm wondering too, as you're saying this, I wrote it down because I just love that where you were talking about misunderstanding the story. So I'm just wondering, is it a good tip then for a writer slash author when they're submitting their manuscript to write down what their vision is, to write down their thoughts around the story versus just here's my manuscript? Like, I think it's interesting you said that because my current editor,

Angela Haas (29:45)
you

Cassie Newell (30:06)
she did my entire short romance

series. And at first she was like, okay, these are going to be novellas. And I was like, yeah, but they're purposefully marketed as to read in under two hours. So there is telling on purpose because I've got to move to get to here and there. I also want, you know, deep characterization. There's going to be a ton of dialogue.

You know, and it was interesting because after I think it was book two, we were in some group together and she heard how exactly I was marketing. And she was like, and I was thinking, I didn't explain that well. But, you know, maybe that is a tip though, for writers to provide more context, because if the editor isn't asking, or, you know, they're busy, maybe that's something to help.

Angela Haas (30:51)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (31:00)
in the process.

Alice (31:01)
Yeah, I think that's a great tip. think

first off, just you knowing what your vision is and what your goal is is so, so important. That's like right up there with values. That's like tier number one, honestly, same thing, values and your vision. To know what your vision is and what your goal is for the story, why you've made the kinds of choices you've made, what's most important to you about that story. Like we can change everything else as long as this thing shines through because this thing is paramount.

Cassie Newell (31:13)
Yeah.

Alice (31:30)
and we can't sacrifice it, so everything else is going to make that thing happen. I think knowing that is really, important. And then I think that it comes back to that communication piece and finding out how is your editor going to engage with you? again, there are so many ways that editors work with writers in a manuscript evaluation or kind of a standard first developmental edit kind of engagement, which I have a whole soapbox on why I don't like those.

Cassie Newell (31:31)
Right.

Right.

Angela Haas (31:45)
Okay.

Alice (31:57)
but in that kind of standard ish standard ish, it's like one of our most standard things is very

non standardized industry in that kind of engagement. You're probably going to send the manuscript off and they're going to give you feedback. And I think that it's really helpful for that editor to have really sharp clarity about what you're trying to do with that manuscript, whether that means.

you have a conversation with them before they read the manuscript. Whether that means you send them like a little brief to go with the manuscript and say, hey, I want you to understand these things about this. Like I want you to capture my vision here. Whether, when I have people send me a manuscript, I don't just have them send me a manuscript, I also send them a worksheet where I have them outline the high level pieces about the story, point of view, character arcs, why they're writing the story. A lot of things to help me understand what are we trying to do here so then I can go into the manuscript and see, okay, did those things happen? Like where are we?

Cassie Newell (32:34)
Nice.

Mm-hmm.

Alice (32:45)
Where are we achieving those goals and where are we not achieving those goals?

Cassie Newell (32:46)
Right.

Alice (32:48)
So the editor might have a baked in way to get those ideas from you, but if they don't, I think that it's really, really worthwhile to find some way to share that vision with them

of whether story works or not, but it's so subjective to figure out how to get there that you want to make sure that the person who's giving you feedback understands what you're trying to do.

Cassie Newell (33:07)
Agreed.

Angela Haas (33:08)
That's such a good point. I have a question though about feedback. there's part of us that need me mostly more self-esteem and more belief that I'm the okayest writer in the world. But also I'm sure you've had clients that did not take your feedback. we have to strike a balance, right? Of trusting ourselves.

But knowing when to kill our darlings. Like there's been times when I was so like obsessed with one scene and I was building the whole book. I just love the scene. And I had an editor her be like, nah, it doesn't work. And they were right. They were right. And I was a little resistant at first. And so how do we help ourselves receive feedback and strike that balance again? Where do I trust myself in this? But where do I know when I do need to listen?

Cassie Newell (33:44)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (33:54)
to the feedback of the professional.

Alice (33:57)
Yeah, that's such a good question. Like every time that I think about a client not receiving feedback, I think about one particular writer I worked with the first year that I was editing, and this writer didn't want to include conflict in their novel. And I was like, I tried so many different ways of approaching that idea to explain, you know, I'm not looking for like a big action fight, nobody needs to pull out guns here, like...

Angela Haas (34:02)
You ⁓

my.

Alice (34:23)
we just need some kind of tension or conflict and like, let's explore what that means. And they were so resistant to it. And eventually I was like, well, we've expended all of the time within this container. I can give you nothing more. Have a very nice writing life and please don't feel the need to put me in your acknowledgements. But

Angela Haas (34:41)
Ow.

Cassie Newell (34:42)
Hahaha.

Alice (34:45)
so there are times, there are times when I've had clients who resist feedback that I think is

critical to the success of their book. on the flip side though you're so right, I've seen writers recently who their insecurities lead and so they are

Cassie Newell (34:53)
Yeah.

Alice (35:01)
more prone to accepting all feedback from an editor. And the thing about getting feedback from an editor, especially if you're getting written feedback with track changes or comments or anything or a red pin, is you look at the document and it's all marked up and it confirms that internal voice that's saying your writing sucks. And then you are like, look, there's the evidence. It's there on the page. Do you see all those crossed out lines? I was right, my writing sucks, therefore.

Angela Haas (35:15)
Yeah.

Alice (35:24)
I should take every piece of advice that this person has given me or I don't feel confident rejecting a change even if I don't know if it feels right. And so I think that it's a very real tension, the both and of sometimes there's feedback that is true, good, important feedback that a writer is resistant to. And sometimes

the writer is not like yet in touch with their own agency over the story to be able to push back when they see feedback that maybe doesn't align.

I think that the advice, I'll think about this in terms of clients that I'm working with right now to be honest, what advice am I going to give them? The advice I'm going to give them is to sit with my ideas for a little bit. Don't immediately accept or reject them.

Cassie Newell (36:06)
Yeah.

Alice (36:08)
sit with them for a little bit and think them through. Look for two things. Look for, and a lot of times I'll directly call this out as I'm talking with clients. I've been trying to do this more and more. Look for where am I offering an example solution versus where am I pointing to the root problem because ...

The example solution is really just for you to respond to and say, I like that, or I don't like that, or I see where you're going with that. Like, I get the idea that you're trying to explain here because I see an example of it, but I don't have to do it that way in my book. But the root problem.

Cassie Newell (36:33)
Mm.

Alice (36:40)
I'm usually pointing, well no, I'm gonna say, just about always, I like to trust my own judgment here. I'll take my own authority, my own advice here. The root problem that I'm pointing to is real. If the writer is resistant to the feedback that I'm suggesting here, then I'll go all the way back down to say, okay, well, if I just respond, like tell you what I'm pointing to, what I'm saying is when I read through the scene and I get to this line, I understand intellectually what you're trying to do here and I don't feel a thing. Like I as the reader am not feeling the impact of this. And that is.

Cassie Newell (37:05)
Mm.

Angela Haas (37:06)
Hmm.

Alice (37:08)
data

for you to sit with and say, okay, well, that's not doing what I wanted it to do. So is the solution that Alice is suggesting the solution I want to take? Is the solution that Alice is suggesting, suggesting a misunderstanding of the story? And I want to push back on that because she's trying to send me in a direction that doesn't align with the story. But the reality is that piece of story right there in that scene for one reader did not have the impact that I wanted it to have.

I would say this is one of the markers of a good editor is being able to understand their feedback well enough that they can explain and defend.

and not in an argumentative way, just like that I'm going to present my clear explanation for you. I'm gonna make sure that my idea

Cassie Newell (37:41)
Right.

Right.

Alice (37:46)
is coming through for you.

Or maybe you finally get down to that root problem and you go, all of their solutions don't feel right, but they are pointing to something real and that I can work with, and that I can build up within my own agency to say,

what I want this story to be.

Cassie Newell (37:59)
I love that. That's great. So I have one final question. For writers and authors that are quite experienced, what type of editing do you recommend? Because at this stage, developmental editing, I don't find a need for it for myself at this point. I feel very solid in story structure. Also, I have a great alpha reader who will knock me on my butt a little bit and I'll do the same to her.

her. So we balance each other really well, like she'll be like, Cassie, you're going too fast. And I'm like, you're right. You know, or what have you. So I'm just curious, like, what would you recommend for the more experienced author who feels really solid in their story structure type of editing?

Angela Haas (38:39)
And I wanna,

I can build on that with my final question, because I think some people who get to a stage where they're like, okay, I feel really good.

turn to the A word AI to finish edits. So once you answer that, then what can a human editor do that an AI editor can't?

Alice (38:58)
So I would say first

Angela Haas (38:59)
you

Alice (39:00)
off, love that you feel confident in story structure. That stuff takes time to learn. And I love that you have built your frameworks in your mind and you see the story. You see the gears turning and you see the story. I think that my question for you would be, where do you feel weaknesses in your own writing or in your own style? Where do you look at your writing and think,

Cassie Newell (39:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Alice (39:22)
I like this but I don't yet love it and I think I could love it more or you think that's something that a book out there did that I love and I don't know if I could recreate something similar on the page, but I want to because what I find and this is like a little hint towards my manuscript evaluation rant which I do have on my podcast if you want to hear about my thoughts and feelings about manuscript evaluations I went on rant for 30 minutes, but I find that writers

Angela Haas (39:42)
Yeah.

Alice (39:48)
really do know where the gaps in your stories are. You really do know where the weaknesses in your stories are. And I'll get on a call with a writer for 30 minutes and I'll ask them all kinds of questions and an intake call to find out what they're working on and what they need. And I'll ask them, what do you think is really working well in your story?

and where are you feeling weaknesses or gaps or concerns or places where you really want feedback. And they'll just give me a list and I'll be like, cool, that's our checklist for our editing. Like I'm gonna get into your manuscript and I'm gonna double check that, but I'm gonna see those same things. Like you're right. You're right that the things that feel like gaps are the legitimate gaps. Your instincts on that are

Angela Haas (40:07)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (40:15)
Yeah.

Alice (40:24)
good. So I would say that the next space of editing that I would recommend is the next area where you want to grow because...

you always have more space to grow as a writer. This is, I think, the other thing to be aware of in your editing process, maybe with your editor, but also more broadly just within your editing process, is the book that you're currently working on, a book that you are executing skills that you have already established, or is it a book where you are stretching yourself

Angela Haas (40:37)
Okay.

Alice (40:52)
to build new skills that you don't yet have?

Cassie Newell (40:54)
I love that.

Alice (40:55)
That's going to change how you approach your revision process and what things you focus on. It's going to change that time and that money and that quality calibration again. You can make all kinds of choices throughout your career. Again, you're not locked in for one book. You're not locked in for your whole life. You get to make that decision with every single book and every single draft, honestly. So I would say, where do you want to learn next? And then here's my bias. I'll be quite honest. This is my bias and

Angela Haas (41:02)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (41:13)
Yeah

Alice (41:20)
what I specialize in. But I bet.

that you and I could have a lot of fun Cassie because I love digging in on the scene level and saying great so the story structure works the story broadly works how can we make every single scene the most intense exciting page turning version of itself that does the thing you wanted the book to do in the biggest bestest way that that thing can do that which I that doesn't mean again like every scene is gonna have someone pulling out a gun that's not it at all it's to say like

Angela Haas (41:25)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (41:49)
No, yeah.

Alice (41:51)
How can we make that scene the most of itself? And I think that once the story structure is really fun, you've got a lot of opportunities on the page level to refine that. so I think that honestly, would still probably, if I had to say which editors you should go to, I'd still probably trend towards a developmental editor, but maybe someone more in a coaching container where you can explore techniques and strategies.

that you haven't explored yet, explore genres you haven't explored yet, not the sort of transactional space where you're gonna send your manuscript off and get notes back, because you already kind of know what those notes are, you when you know how to solve those problems. Or if you are really wanting to elevate your writing style on the line level, you could find maybe a line editor who can do the kinds of things that you want to do in your story, vet those really, really carefully because like,

Cassie Newell (42:18)
Yeah.

Alice (42:41)
Line editor, again, very subjective, can mean a lot of different things, they can make a lot of different kind of changes. So I would say,

There's probably still depths to plumb in the developmental space, but the best way that you'll be able to access those is by asking yourself, where do you want to grow next? What's most exciting to you and where do you feel gaps?

Cassie Newell (42:58)
Gotcha. And then to follow up with Angela's side of the question, your thoughts on editing software and AI usage for editing.

Angela Haas (43:06)
Yeah,

I'm not, I am not shaming anyone who hates AI and we are not here to shame anyone who uses, you know, more AI software, anything like that. It is, this is information, but what as a human editor, what

What are the advantages of sticking with for at least for like say copy editing, some people are just running it through a pro writing aid and calling it good. What's the difference with using a human editor in that stage?

Alice (43:32)
So, okay, I love this question too. I love all your questions. I just got off, little side tangent, I just got off a call with a podcast editor because I'm looking at outsourcing some of my editing for my podcast and we had a great conversation about how they use AI in their podcast editing and they were like, we don't really use it because honestly, humans can do it better.

Angela Haas (43:36)
Peace!

Alice (43:55)
And we had a conversation about how I use it in an editing space, how they use it in a podcast editing space. And the kind of broad concepts that we were talking about there is like, if you have no skills in a certain area, AI can bring you up to a specific level of polish. If you have skills that are beyond that in that area, AI is going to bring you down to its baseline level of polish. And it makes, I'm thinking like generative AI, like chat GPT at the moment. That's what I'm speaking of specifically.

Angela Haas (44:16)
Wow.

Alice (44:22)
it more difficult to spot errors because it has a baseline level of polish than it would be if it were human writing because the writing would start to fall apart on a surface level at the same time that the ideas underneath start to fall apart. But chat GPT can make ideas that are really

shaky and don't have a strong foundation. It can make them look good on the surface level with decent words. And so it's harder to spot the problems underneath. So that's all to say, like, in terms of the generative AI, chat GPT,

Cassie Newell (44:44)
Sure.

Alice (44:50)
or like broad brush using it to edit things like you'll get from baseline no skills up to a certain level of polish but you won't get it to the true human expert level of polish. For pro writing aid or Grammarly or any of those services for copy editing, they're gonna solve a lot of errors. They're gonna catch a lot of things.

Angela Haas (45:04)
.

Cassie Newell (45:05)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (45:08)
you

Alice (45:12)
They're also going to introduce some errors if you just blanket accept every single change that they make. So you do need to go through and watch for, watch for to make sure that they're correcting correct things and not adding in problems. there's, I mean, let's be honest, humans are not perfect. Even the

Cassie Newell (45:15)
bright.

Alice (45:34)
best copy editor is going to have an error rate. It's like a one to 5 % error rate in books.

Angela Haas (45:35)
Right.

Alice (45:41)
So I think that that's it. Yep, you open that first page and there it is right there. It's the page that you opened to. Why didn't you just go to the page that you opened to when you were editing? anyway, there's always going to be some level of

Angela Haas (45:41)
The only way to find those is to publish your book and then you get it.

Cassie Newell (45:45)
Yes.

Yeah.

Alice (45:56)
error. So even if you're working with a human, you're still going to have an error level. I'm sure that there's data out there about like the errors within just going through pro writing aid versus the errors of a human editor.

I don't know that data, but I do know that if you send it through ProWritingAid, you're going to clean a lot of stuff up. And then when you send it to a copy editor, you're going to kind of ⁓ move them through a little bit quicker, like shave down their turnaround time. But there's still going to be a gap. It's a good polish. It's not perfect. And depending, again.

Angela Haas (46:08)
So.

Alice (46:26)
depending on what your goals are, depending on what your minimum viable proud is, you get to determine what feels like success to you. How do you measure success? What are your readers responding to? I think a great question if you're in a position where, I okay, I love excellence, I'm a perfectionist, I would go all the way, I'd get the copy editor and the proofreader and everything, but barring that, if that's not you, I think a good measure to evaluate would be to say, how is your audience responding? Are you getting your audience?

Cassie Newell (46:31)
Exactly, yeah.

Alice (46:54)
Is your audience reviewing on Amazon? I couldn't read this because this book needed an editor because I found three comma splices on the first page. I would say ⁓ don't use chat GPT as your grammar ⁓ corrector because it's really bad. It introduces all kinds of errors that are just baked into incorrect human patterns of writing. And so it's bad at that. ⁓ But.

Cassie Newell (46:54)
Right.

Angela Haas (47:06)
No. And it

Cassie Newell (47:16)
Right.

Angela Haas (47:19)
can't, like I was told you should edit.

based on Chicago manual of style. don't know what you prefer, but it doesn't seem like the AI software can't really adhere to some of those rules if it's AP or if it's Chicago manual, yeah, that's a struggle.

Cassie Newell (47:34)
Yeah. I do love, I do love AutoCrit

Alice (47:37)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (47:39)
and I do like ProWritingAid and I use them and I love the reports. I find them really helpful. You know, it's a first bait. Like once I'm done, I have a three stage editing process for myself. Once I get to that end stage before it goes to my editor, it helps me out a great deal.

Angela Haas (47:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Cassie Newell (47:58)
this was really helpful. Thank you so much, Alice. Where can people learn more about you and find you?

Alice (47:58)
Yeah.

Come find me on the internet at alicesudlow.com. That's my website where you'll find my podcast and how to work with me and a lot of free resources and all the things. My podcast is Your Next Draft and that is where I support fiction writers doing the hard work of revising unputdownable novels. So

you'll hear solo episodes where I'm sharing my own editing strategies. You'll hear... ⁓

from authors in their editing strategies and you'll hear some scene workshop at episodes where you'll get to hear how I am walking people through editing their scenes,

Cassie Newell (48:37)
So

at the end of our podcast, we do a thing called table talk. So we get to know you a little bit better.

Alice (48:42)
boy, okay.

Angela Haas (48:43)
This is a

question picked at random out of my little table topics bucket. This is an interesting one, but we can handle it. Okay. Where's the worst place you've had to relieve yourself?

Cassie Newell (48:48)
you

UGH! my god. The worst? What contifies worst? I love it.

Angela Haas (48:57)
you

Obviously

I know every time. I know, I just know.

Alice (49:06)
my goodness, I did not expect to be asked this question on a podcast, but I have multiple stories and I'm

Cassie Newell (49:11)
I love it multiple.

Angela Haas (49:12)
See, we, yeah. Okay, fine. I'll go first. so we, because we were mentally insane for a while, my husband and I tried to buy an RV to go back and forth to Arizona. And before I mean, that helped cut down on some of these roadside horror stories. But before that, just

those road trips, there was like a gas station bathroom that I swear there was blood in the sink. I was like, I think I'm in a crime scene. But also like we're under the impression that women are all roses and flowers and beautiful and we're goddesses and I'm sorry. Like this woman's bathroom, I was like, what on earth? Ladies? I'm disappointed. It was the grossest experience.

So yeah, I have a problem with public restrooms. And this is why, excuse me, in movies, as a romance writer, I notice these things, but when women, when two people are going at it in a public restroom, I'm like, stop it. No, no, I don't care how.

pent up it is. You're either like in the toilet. I'm like, are you kidding me? I would be like freaking out. No, I'm too. I know, but I'm like, I'm sorry, there's got to be a better romance spot. I can't wrap my head around it as a germaphobe being in those restrooms. I'm like, ew, it smells in there. Okay.

Cassie Newell (50:20)
That's why it's fiction!

Alice (50:32)
They're in the fictional clean public restrooms. That's how you know it's really like a fantasy story here.

Cassie Newell (50:34)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (50:36)
Sure. Yes.

Alice (50:37)
Okay, so having sifted through all my stories, I'm gonna pick the one where I got the most injured, which is...

Cassie Newell (50:38)
fantasy.

Alice (50:44)
The location was, I mean, up and down. It was quite nice. I was at the beach and I was with some friends and, you know, we were having a long beach day and we didn't go back to the house very regularly. And so I'm out in the ocean and I'm swimming and I'm like, dang it, I really need to go to the bathroom right now. So I, you know, am in the ocean, walk away, far away, far, far away from all of my friends and I relieve myself. And then I am...

I feel this terrible pain and I have no idea what just happened. I got stung by a jellyfish all down my hand and arm while I'm standing out there in the middle of the ocean going to the bathroom and I was like, shoot. So then I had to go walk back to my friends and admit what in the world I was doing way out there in the waves and then go back up to the lifeguard and explain like.

Angela Haas (51:17)
Oh gosh.

my gosh.

Cassie Newell (51:22)
yes.

Alice (51:33)
I just got this massive jellyfish sting. I will say it was a pretty cool sting. The tentacles were all down my hand and my arm. And I was kind of disappointed I didn't get a scar out of it because I was like, that'd be a really cool looking scar. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Angela Haas (51:41)
That would have been really cool. You would have been a superhero. ⁓

Cassie Newell (51:46)
my god.

Angela Haas (51:49)
Missed opportunity.

Cassie Newell (51:50)
missed opportunity.

Alice (51:53)
You

Cassie Newell (51:54)
So it's, it's more of a situation. But when my girls were younger, Allison was maybe four or five, we were heading to Tennessee where I'm originally from, and we got caught in a snowstorm, such that the highway shut down. And we were in the middle of the highway. And there was no exit, there was no no ability to get off.

Alice (52:09)
no.

Angela Haas (52:10)
⁓ no.

Cassie Newell (52:14)
So you're just sitting in your car, lines and lines of cars, couple hours go by and my sweet little daughter says, we need to go to the bathroom. And we were like, okay, it's gonna be fun. We're gonna go pee in the snow together. And she was just like, no mom, no, we don't make yellow snow, no, no. And what's so crazy is you've got,

Angela Haas (52:30)
Go ⁓ ahead. ⁓

Cassie Newell (52:41)
cars behind you and after a while they turn off their headlights, right? I mean, it is nighttime. It was like, I don't know, midnight or something. I mean, it was ridiculous. It was a really bad ice and snowstorm. So we're walking off the little embankment. You know, you see all kinds of people doing this because they're stuck in their cars. There's nowhere to go, right? And so I'm taking my little, you know, little larger than a toddler down the hill.

Angela Haas (52:44)
Right.

.

Cassie Newell (53:07)
And I don't think anybody expected me to go as well, but I was like showing her like, this is how girls do it. We have to knock our butt back, you know, so we don't get our, our pants and all that. And of course, three cars behind us all turned on their headlights at the same time. And I was like, okay, it's a show. So anyway, yeah, there you go. That was the most fun. And of course she was, she laughed, you know.

She's like, my bottom's cold. You know, we're running back to get in the truck at the time that we had, you know, but yeah, that was so fun. So fun. Alice, thank you so much and listeners for joining us today. Don't forget to give us a review and a rating wherever you listen to the podcast. It really helps us with visibility.

Alice (53:40)
is chilling.

Angela Haas (53:42)
Literally chilling. Yep. Well, thank you for answering that. That was a wild one.

Cassie Newell (53:58)
Next week we're talking with Patrick O'Donnell who created the group Cops and Writers. Till next time, keep writing, keep doing!

Angela Haas (54:06)
Bye.

Cassie Newell (54:07)
Bye.

Alice (54:07)
Bye!

View episode details


Subscribe

Listen to The Author Next Door using one of many popular podcasting apps or directories.

Apple Podcasts Spotify Overcast Pocket Casts Amazon Music YouTube
← Previous · All Episodes · Next →