Episode 26
· 42:46
Cassie Newell (00:17)
Welcome to episode 26. I'm Cassie Newell, and I'm here with my co-host Angela Haas. And this month, we're talking about hot topics. This episode, we're talking with International Bestselling author Ava Miles. Welcome, Ava. Welcome to the Author Next Door Yeah. So in.
Ava Miles (00:33)
How are you?
Angela Haas (00:34)
laughs
Ava Miles (00:36)
to everybody who's
watching. We've had a lead up so it's like, hello Angie. It's like, Angela, Cassie, we're all ready, we're going.
Angela Haas (00:42)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (00:43)
All right, I love it. So in your bio, you're an international bestselling author.
You have powerful fiction and nonfiction books about love, happiness, transformation, have received praise and accolades from USA Today, Publishers Weekly and People Magazine in addition, sorry, in addition to being chosen as best books of the year and top editors pick and translated into multiple languages. After years of residing in the States,
Angela Haas (01:05)
Thanks.
Cassie Newell (01:10)
You decided to follow your dream and living in Europe and you're finishing a magical stint in Ireland where you've been inspired to write your acclaimed book, The Unexpected Prince Charming series. Now you split your
time between Paris and Provence, learning to speak French, immersing yourself in cooking a la provincial and planning more page turning novels for readers to binge. I love that. So you're in France right now. Which location?
Ava Miles (01:38)
I am in Provence, Hot, it's dry,
Cassie Newell (01:39)
I love that. That is so.
Angela Haas (01:40)
Amazing. So amazing.
Ava Miles (01:42)
and my fabulous flowers here are from the
Angela Haas (01:46)
I see
it, the lavender and eucalyptus? Is that what I'm getting?
Ava Miles (01:49)
It's actually,
I think if it's lavender and sage had a baby, that's pretty much what this plant is. So aromatic. I went out and I was like, I'll go and get like a flower out of the garden. And it was like, yes, this one.
Angela Haas (01:53)
⁓ yeah.
Cassie Newell (01:53)
⁓ lovely.
fun. What an adventure. I love that. So are you going to hop around Europe all over or stay primarily in France between Paris and Provence?
Ava Miles (02:10)
Well, so
far, it looks like we're going to be in France longer. So that's really happy. So I've got my special papers that allow me to do that as a renowned author, which is really exciting. France is one of the few countries that actually has particular visas for people who are artists and that type of thing, authors, cetera. And so they celebrate art, of course. I there's no place better, I think, that celebrates art in the world.
Cassie Newell (02:19)
to stay.
Angela Haas (02:31)
How?
Cassie Newell (02:36)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (02:39)
come here and you celebrate art and they celebrate you and it's really kind of great.
Cassie Newell (02:43)
wonderful. But we're going to talk about hockey romance, because you have a book that's
Ava Miles (02:47)
I know.
Angela Haas (02:48)
Yes.
Cassie Newell (02:49)
coming out, right? All about hockey.
Ava Miles (02:50)
Yeah, it came out actually yesterday, the Hockey Experiment which is not the Yeah, not the hockey book. Yeah. ⁓
Angela Haas (02:53)
okay. Congrats. Wow.
Cassie Newell (02:54)
It came out yesterday.
my goodness. So what led
you to hockey? Let's just start off there before we get right into it. I'm, you're talking. Yeah, very, very all over. So I'm curious what what got you into hockey?
Angela Haas (03:04)
Yeah, you have a very interesting resume.
Ava Miles (03:11)
Right, well, know, 60 books later, I'm always looking for a story that's different, you know, I mean, that's like, I wrote things that I felt like I couldn't read when I was a reader, you know?
And so I thought it'd be fun to do something really different with hockey. And I'd been wanting to do researchers. And so this was my kind of like ode to the culture anthropology life that I didn't pursue. I mean, I remember almost switching and going and doing a PhD in culture anthropology. I actually dedicated the book to this particular professor because she's one of those teachers that makes you want to go and take that path.
And I was on the international conflict resolution and negotiation path at the time. And I just thought, my God, that'd be the craziest thing. Like, you know, if I just switched and decided to do this, but I was like, so I was like, wouldn't it be fun to do these researchers who study this team? And what's awesome about it, and you especially Cassie, as a hockey fan, you will find it very amusing to know that there have been lots written about how hockey players are modern cavemen, because of course that's the study, you know.
Cassie Newell (03:46)
I love that.
Ava Miles (04:14)
The Harry, Dr. Venter, Margrove is hired by her dad, who's the owner of a new hockey team. And he wants to motivate the team with this kind of crazy motivational sort of strategy, which is our hockey players, modern Caveman, because they not only hunted in packs, they took down wooly mammoths, but they survived the ice age. And if you can survive the ice age, you can win the Stanley Cup. I mean, let's be serious.
Angela Haas (04:15)
wow.
Cassie Newell (04:34)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (04:37)
Right.
Of course!
Ava Miles (04:39)
It's a cake, piece of cake, right?
So except of course, you know, being a romance, you know, she doesn't expect being an Oxford PhD to find this incredible red hot attraction to the captain of the hockey team. He doesn't expect it because she looks, she's in disguise. She looks like this, you know, nerdy trainer. You know, she's like, it's totally nerdy meets jock. And she finds out the greatest acute experiment is falling in love. And so I you good time with it.
Angela Haas (05:03)
my gosh, my heart.
Cassie Newell (05:06)
That's great. That's so great.
Ava Miles (05:08)
So yeah, so it's not
like the other hockey books, because I've read some of those and it's like, they could have been a plumber. know, it's like, it's basically, get together, they have a really good time together. He's like really hot. ⁓ You know, like he's really competitive. He's the alpha dog or whatever. But I, that's not the book that I wrote. I this guy is like a family guy. I picked the nicest guy in hockey. I'm going to ask you, Cassie, who is the nicest guy in the NHL? Who do you think?
Angela Haas (05:14)
Right.
Cassie Newell (05:18)
Yeah.
Headman,
Victor Headman on the bolts on Team Lightning, Tampa Bay I say that is because I've seen him with his child and it'll just how it's it's crazy because he's huge, a mammoth defenseman, you know, has won all these awards. mean, intimidating is all get out of when he's off the ice, he's talking, he's so soft spoken. He's the kindest.
Ava Miles (05:36)
Okay, not right.
Angela Haas (05:44)
Aww.
Ava Miles (05:59)
Gentle giant, right? Gentle giant. Who picked Sidney Crosby?
Cassie Newell (05:59)
yeah, I could easily. Yeah, there's so many though.
Crosby. Okay. He is he is the most respected, so talented, but I'm always against his team. So that's a problem.
Ava Miles (06:07)
Everybody says he's smart, guy. Smart?
Angela Haas (06:11)
Okay.
Ava Miles (06:16)
Because
he's from Pittsburgh, Is he in the same league? Of course.
Cassie Newell (06:21)
Yeah, no, he's
wonderful. He's so talented. Yeah. Yeah.
Ava Miles (06:25)
and smart and kind
and nice and private. And I was like, this is my inspiration right here. So yeah, have a family-focused hero. have a family-focused hero. There you go. I have a family-focused hero because I dated dogs. Sorry, screw that. I'm not writing them as a hero. Cripes, I'm not gonna get them in page time. Are you kidding me? They are not happily ever after material. They are not heroes.
Cassie Newell (06:32)
All right, so Sydney Crossby was your inspiration. I love this for the hockey girls out there and boys.
Angela Haas (06:44)
Right.
Cassie Newell (06:47)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (06:52)
know, 60 books later, every hero I have. I mean, like, I didn't know cinnamon roll until this year. Cinnamon roll hero. I'm like, apparently I write the cinnamon roll hero really well, but also he can be an cinnamon roll. So Brock, Brock the Rock Thompson is the alpha cinnamon roll.
Angela Haas (06:53)
Yeah
Cassie Newell (07:01)
and Golden Retriever Hero. We love those too.
Angela Haas (07:02)
.
Cassie Newell (07:08)
I love it.
Angela Haas (07:09)
Okay,
this is what I don't understand. This is part of my confusion because I've started reading some books and you know, I think one started out with it was college and this man is bragging about how he slept with everyone on campus. So he might as well choose this other girl and she's the romantic love interest. And I'm like, okay, I know men like that. They don't just miraculously settle down. Like if you start like that where he's just having
Cassie Newell (07:20)
Mm.
Angela Haas (07:35)
two girls in a night and he forgot their names. I mean, those guys tend to want to be those guys. They don't tend to suddenly the love of a good woman. Like I think maybe I'm too old for some of these because I'm so cynical. I'm like, honey, he ain't settling down. I'm like, close the book. So that's what I'm so excited about your male lead because it sounds like, someone who could fall in love
Cassie Newell (07:44)
You
Ava Miles (07:56)
No.
Cassie Newell (07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (07:59)
tape
Like that's what we want.
Ava Miles (08:02)
I'm
not gonna write that hero and I don't like to read that hero I mean, you know, I mean like I say everybody has a book out there for them and I say Whatever you want read whatever you want, but that's not I'm gonna read it's not the book that I'm gonna write and so, know one thing that was great is to see all the early reviewers coming in saying like they loved that he was a Family-oriented man who was hard-working. He was caring and he also was emotionally intelligent because I can't stand the
Angela Haas (08:05)
Yeah.
Right! yeah!
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ava Miles (08:28)
the jerk, like I'm gonna be a dramatic prima donna kind of thing. I don't believe it. don't believe that they're gonna be together. Like everybody always thinks when Ava does a character and they get together, like two characters, they always like are happily ever after. Cause I'm like, I'm writing for the longterm. I'm not like, Hey, you're gonna last six months. You know, it's like, it's gotta be a connection. And that's the thing that I love is that, you know, she had been Dr. Valentina Hargrove. She had been a junior Olympian figure skater. And before she kind of like,
Angela Haas (08:33)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (08:46)
Right.
Ava Miles (08:56)
left it because she was burnt out. She didn't want to keep competing. And she found this other niche in culture anthropology. And so she understands him as a competitor. She understands what it takes. And she respects him. And he actually understands that she respects him because he had this ex-wife who didn't like that he was like that brute sort of bloodlust that you see on the hockey. She didn't like that. She didn't like him getting hurt as much as he got.
Cassie Newell (09:07)
That's perfect.
Angela Haas (09:15)
Hmm
Right.
Ava Miles (09:22)
and Valentina's like, he's a competitor. She knows how it is. Cause there's, there's a great scene in there where, Cassie, I'll do this for you. The Edmonton oil, the oilers long time ago when they were having during the Wayne Gresky period, they had the skids. That's what I call it in the book, because that's what I felt like is when you're going through the season and then suddenly it goes, so that's when this, this particular caveman motivational strategy is brought up. And so they bring out the bag scape.
Cassie Newell (09:31)
the oilers.
Yep.
Interesting.
Ava Miles (09:47)
because that's what happened during that Wayne Gretzky 86, 87 time. And they brought the back skate out. whipped, the coach whipped their butts. I mean, Gretzky puked, okay? Like, puked, all right? Puked his guts out and they won two freaking championships after that. So I have that in the book. And he's thinking, how am gonna explain this to the woman in my life? That she's just witnessed this really horrendous thing and she gets it. She's upset because she loves him, of course.
Cassie Newell (09:50)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (09:57)
Well.
Cassie Newell (09:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ava Miles (10:14)
But she gets it. And there's this great respect that I thought would be nice because they both are fish out of water, but at the same time, over time, as things unveil, they understand each other in a really deep way that I think leads to a lasting relationship.
Angela Haas (10:29)
Hello, sign me up for this. Hello.
Ava Miles (10:31)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (10:31)
I love that. So did you
approach the character development with your athletes by researching real players dynamics? Like, have you always been a hockey fan? I'm just kind of curious how this all started for you. OK.
Ava Miles (10:44)
Right, well, I'm a huge sports fan.
my first, it was funny, I was just talking to somebody. I was talking to a radio show out of Alaska, except the host was in Salt Lake City, which was so funny. He was on vacation. And I was like, my God, I was like, the first hockey game that I ever went to was in Utah. On a date. And so I laughed. I'm like, well, talk about full circle, right? And so it was so funny, but I love good competition.
Angela Haas (11:00)
Whoa.
Cassie Newell (11:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ava Miles (11:10)
⁓
and I think one of the things that personally I think is fascinating about hockey is also how incredibly respected, revered, obsessive the fans are about a sport that is literally almost as, to me, almost as violent as boxing. And sometimes that's interesting to me as, because I'm a, I'm a huge football fan. I've written two football romances. and so part of me is also like, I wanted to explore this too, because it's like, interesting. It's like.
Cassie Newell (11:20)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (11:24)
Mm-hmm.
Ava Miles (11:35)
hockey stuff is fabulous. I mean, said this book is like miracle, the movie Miracle, meets Weird Science Did you ever see the movie Weird Science? Okay. Yeah. So I was like, if I could say that this was like this movie, I said it be like this. So yeah, of course I researched some modern stuff and I also wanted to see the academic thing because hockey is a very interesting thing academically to a lot of people about
Cassie Newell (11:39)
⁓ gosh, the movie.
Angela Haas (11:40)
yeah.
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (11:44)
Yes. my gosh, fun.
Angela Haas (11:45)
Yes, of course.
Cassie Newell (11:49)
I love it.
Ava Miles (12:01)
why it's happened, you and also as someone who worked in conflict and conflict zones, I found fascinating that it was a sport that was created by military people during like kind of around and before the American Revolutionary War to actually like kind of keep conflict and also have an outlet for conflict between ethnic, cultural, and other groups. Very interesting. Very, very interesting to me. So, you know, I totally nerded out about the research. Also, can I just say one thing that I love, love, love about this book?
Cassie Newell (12:11)
Really?
Yeah.
Angela Haas (12:21)
Wow.
Ava Miles (12:29)
The funniest book research of all time. So going back to cave paintings, okay, because you know this is about cavemen, right? The only thing in cave paintings, going back, we're talking billions of years, that was ever enlarged was male appendages.
Angela Haas (12:29)
Yes.
Oh my gosh. Wow. Was it the men painting? Like, I'll just make, yeah, it's probably bigger. No, let's make it like this.
Cassie Newell (12:45)
Of course. I wonder who was painting them.
Ava Miles (12:46)
I just like that it's fantastic since...
Since
the beginning, the bear wasn't bigger, but guess what was?
Cassie Newell (12:59)
love it.
Angela Haas (12:59)
Yeah,
the bear is small. The weapon and the appendage is really big. Man, kill bear. Yes. Okay. ⁓ my gosh. That is endless. That is endless comedy. I love it.
Ava Miles (13:00)
Uh-huh.
Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, the jokes were themselves. I had so much fun writing the jokes in this book.
Cassie Newell (13:10)
I love it.
That's great.
Angela Haas (13:14)
So why is this such a hot category though? I I read the K-Lytics report that says hockey romance is still, usually things kind of like explode and then they dip and then, but hockey romance seems to keep going and going. And why is this such a hot category for someone who hasn't read it, hasn't written it and is, I'm really into football. I think I can write a football romance.
but well, I am still rooting for the Broncos. I was a Broncos fan all the way because of Manning. Like I still haven't recovered because that was like one of the greatest seasons ever. but I was, I was rooting for, Josh, Josh Allen plays for the Bills, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ava Miles (13:40)
Who's your team?
away.
Is he still?
Angela Haas (14:02)
So I was rooting for them, but they lost. anyway, so I was really into football during the Manning and I was the sports photographer for like our local sports. And I really loved being on the sidelines of football. So when it came to hockey, I was like, I get it. I can't even see the puck when I'm watching.
Cassie Newell (14:23)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (14:24)
So, but it is so hot, people devour it. But from your perspective, why do you think it's just unstoppable as far as sports romance or just romance in general?
Ava Miles (14:34)
You know, I honestly, I'm like kind of the person who wants to say, you know, is it just having its day? Because I remember when Susan Elizabeth Phillips started the football romance, basically she started sports romance, right? And we went through football and then we had baseball and like it seemed like, like JC Burton, I remember when her books came out and some of the best covers that you saw on, like sports romance, like since I think the beginning. so I kind of wonder if this is just hockey's finally having its due.
Angela Haas (14:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ava Miles (15:01)
Now, as someone who used to be in conflict negotiation, who also pays attention to the world, who's a life coach and like keeps like antennas about stuff like that,
Angela Haas (15:07)
Mm-hmm.
Ava Miles (15:11)
I also wonder if we're not as women, especially because women are mostly the users and like the readers of Haki Remets. I wonder if we're trying to make sense of male aggression. And we're trying to bump our cars around it. We're trying to say, hey, we really want an alpha, but we want it in these particular parameters. And we want to have a little bit of
Angela Haas (15:27)
Right.
Ava Miles (15:28)
to see around it. want to have a little bit of a, we want to have rules around it. We want to have sort of a way in which we believe that it's going to turn out okay for us. Because I really do feel like from what I hear and what I'm seeing, we have a lot of concerns about like what male aggression looks like to women. And I kind of that's a reflection of sort of the fantasy that we're looking for. Because we're trying to make sense of a world and we're trying to like find a way in which we can kind of look at it and be okay with it.
Angela Haas (15:42)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (15:53)
But that's just my thing. That's not necessarily saying why I think that it's really hot. But I'm curious because Cassie, like I said, is the penultimate, I think, person here. What do you think?
Cassie Newell (15:59)
Yeah.
Yeah, I would say I would say most sports romance when it hits,
it's because of found family with the team. And it's usually because it's in a series. The reason why I think hockey is so popular is not about aggression. It's actually the opposite because they carry it out in the ice. Very similar to rugby. When it's off the field off the ice, it's gone. They are
Ava Miles (16:15)
⁓
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's what I mean.
Cassie Newell (16:30)
They are the best to each other. They are shaking hands. They're at the pub. It's all on the field or on the ice. And not all sports are like that because they play into that aggression for optics and entertainment. Hockey is really quite respectful. So I find it a little different. So I look at as the respectfulness, the tradition. The other piece to that is
Ava Miles (16:35)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (16:54)
being a sports lover for the longest time, I used to love baseball. And then when they got into negotiations of salaries over two decades ago, I was done with it. I was like, you are the most multi-million player and you're crying like a baby. Give me a break. Do you know what the rest of the world does to support to get your ticket? I'm over you. Hockey's a little different. It's just now getting to that tier. These guys are hustling.
Angela Haas (17:11)
Right, yeah.
Cassie Newell (17:22)
you know, they are getting some paydays today, but it hasn't always been like that. So to me, if I put a sports person up against each other in a professional line, I have more respect for the hockey player 24 seven, they are not in the news like football players are that I think are over height. I'm over it. When I get excited about football, it's college ball, because they're still hustling. And not all the time because well, you could get into those discussions.
Ava Miles (17:40)
Right.
And yet still paying now.
That's,
Cassie Newell (17:51)
But
Angela Haas (17:51)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (17:52)
so I think hockey for me, it was just this realization of these really hunky guys that quite honestly, are such great athletes, they're bigger guys, they have these talents, but they don't act like that off the ice. I mean, not typically, just like you asked me who was the gentlest giant, you know, and I like there's so many, right? And they're they do have egos to a certain extent, but
It's just not the same when you compare it to football, soccer. Like I've just seen it differently. I don't know. I just love it. And I love that found family element of the team because you are a unit.
Angela Haas (18:25)
So it's.
Ava Miles (18:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think you have to be that to win. I mean, I really do believe that. It doesn't matter what sport you're in. But I'm also going to say, I lived in town. I'm also going yeah.
Angela Haas (18:31)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (18:33)
Yeah.
But I love that for series, right? So like
Megan Quinn's Vancouver one, like you end up, you read the first one or the second one, you are following that entire team. Yeah, I love it.
Ava Miles (18:47)
Sure, sure, sure.
Yeah. And I, you know, like, I won't say what town I lived in, but I'm going to say I lived in a town. And I lived in a town that was very well known for hockey, had a very, very good team, very highly professional team or whatever. And I remember a friend taking me to the place where the hockey guys were. And I looked at the corner of that room and I said, I don't ever want to come here again because those guys are dogs and I don't want to be around them. I knew they were bad boys.
Angela Haas (18:54)
You
Cassie Newell (19:10)
no.
Ava Miles (19:13)
And I said, I'm not coming back to this bar. She went specifically to meet them and I said, I don't have anything to do with them. So that was not a, in terms of real life for me, that was not a real life fantasy.
Cassie Newell (19:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, so you
Angela Haas (19:25)
Huh,
Cassie Newell (19:25)
didn't want to be a hockey bunny? Yeah.
Angela Haas (19:25)
that's interesting. ⁓ boy. I think maybe the fantasy side, because that's what romance is, right? Is having some sort of alpha male on the ice, but then, you know, your teddy bear off the ice, but still in sort of wrapped in the alpha male package, maybe? Maybe something like that. I don't know.
Ava Miles (19:29)
that.
I
don't know. I for me, you I worked, like I said, in war zones. I worked with a lot of soldiers. I worked with a of peacekeepers. I worked with a lot of, you know, special forces guys. I worked with alpha dogs, okay, who I think were alpha dog, to be fair, than professional athletes. And I think the one thing about professional athletes, and I think also the one thing about soldiers, is that we really want to believe that they give their all to their profession. They'll give their all to us. They'll give their all to the thing. They'll give their...
Angela Haas (19:58)
Yeah.
Right, that's not always the case, yeah.
Cassie Newell (20:12)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (20:15)
through the marriage and often that isn't necessarily the case. ⁓ So I think, you it's that commitment. It's you're right. It is the brotherhood. But it is that determination is the discipline. is the drive that we see that we respect and we admire in that. And I think that there is a fantasy about that being able to translate to happily after a romance for sure.
Cassie Newell (20:20)
You're right.
Angela Haas (20:38)
Yeah,
Cassie Newell (20:38)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (20:38)
yeah. All good stuff. It's just all, love dissecting just the different cultures and just, you know, I went, my newest romance is set on a Colorado dude ranch with, it's a safe haven for vets transitioning back into. And I did a lot of research on that kind of alpha dog, but then trying to make it still part of the fantasy, I think, you know,
Ava Miles (20:54)
I have sex.
Angela Haas (21:01)
That's what it is. That's trying to translate that. Yeah.
Ava Miles (21:05)
I think it
depends. I think I think it's wonderful when you get messages from readers, right? We get these feedback. And I wrote a book called The Promise of Rainbows about a vet who had turned as a country singer. And he had PTSD and he never thought that he was going to be able to have happily ever
Angela Haas (21:12)
Mm-hmm.
Ava Miles (21:22)
He never thought he was going to be able to get over the nightmares, get over the dreams. Some of it was people that I personally knew. Some of it was also the fact that I had PTSD, but I wrote that. And when I finished that book, I had all these mothers of vets. had all these wives and daughters of vets writing me and saying that they finally understood this man that they had in their life, um, for what he really had gone through and also what he was experiencing. And I remember thinking it was one of the best things I had this woman who told me, um, she was from
Angela Haas (21:29)
Mm.
Ava Miles (21:51)
in small town in Oklahoma. She said that there was this vet who came in, he was the most ornery man she'd ever met. And you know, small town, you always come across the ornery man, right? And you never, never get away from him. And so she said, after reading my book, she was determined, determined to smile and treat him well and to get him to say something nice to her.
Angela Haas (22:00)
yeah.
Ava Miles (22:10)
but she was going to be nice. And she told me it took six weeks for her to change her behavior with him to them to have a good relationship. And I remember thinking that what an incredible gift that had been that she heard and saw that man in a different way because of my book. And I was so grateful for that. So grateful for that. The good moments as a writer, right?
Cassie Newell (22:21)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (22:26)
That's so amazing. Yeah,
Cassie Newell (22:27)
I love it.
Angela Haas (22:31)
that's what feeds us for sure,
Cassie Newell (22:33)
how did you tackle the technical details of hockey and with the emotional arc of the romance? How did you intersect that in your particular book?
Ava Miles (22:44)
Well, you know, mean, I am known, I'm the queen of book research. I've moved to countries to actually like set series. So I love it. I put in 1200 hours on a book that's not uncommon for me. I love it. So, you know, I was really looking for both the...
Angela Haas (22:51)
Wow.
Cassie Newell (22:51)
Sure.
Ava Miles (23:03)
observational culture anthropology sort of moments. So like one of my favorite scenes in there is when they finally go and watch the tape sticking ritual that the hockey players do. Because it was so funny to me. I didn't know this. I don't know if you know this. What is the end of the hockey stick called? don't know this. Okay.
Cassie Newell (23:11)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (23:12)
You
Cassie Newell (23:20)
I don't know. No.
I just call it a stick, so I don't know.
Ava Miles (23:27)
It's called the shaft.
Angela Haas (23:29)
okay.
Ava Miles (23:31)
So, and
here are my two researchers, right, who are studying rituals and superstition, which the taping the stick is both. And they're like, they tape their sh-
Cassie Newell (23:42)
You
Ava Miles (23:43)
It was so great. mean, like, right to the mouth, right? And so my hero, Mr. Icy and Too Intense, Brock, The Rock Thompson, he was a huge fan of Wayne Gretzky who did not tape his stick. And so of course, one of the research is just like, it's like he knows that he doesn't need any enhancements.
Angela Haas (23:43)
You
my goodness, so much innuendo. I love it. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (24:02)
I love it.
Ava Miles (24:02)
Well, because that's the banter, right? I mean, to me, it's like,
if you're going to go for it, it's like, this is a PG-13, Catherine Hepburn screwball comedy from like the 30s and 40s. Like what I love.
Angela Haas (24:12)
I love it.
Yeah, I love it. So you do have to have authentic, real authentic game stuff going on. I mean, do readers of hockey romance, do they want stuff about the game? Because I this conversation with a man who wrote a hockey romance and his thing was just, it should be 100 % authentic with the game.
Cassie Newell (24:15)
Awesome.
Ava Miles (24:16)
But yeah.
It's a sports car!
Angela Haas (24:35)
a thousand percent and not as much about the romance
Ava Miles (24:40)
I mean, you know, I don't listen to anybody tell me how I need to write a book. That's the worst antidote for anything, you know? So to me, it always needs to be believable, 100%. So yeah, absolutely 100%. When you're in the locker room, you're going to believe that those are hockey players. You're going to believe that the conversations they have when they're getting off the plane after they've lost a game or they've won a game, or you're in the stands and you're seeing that,
Angela Haas (24:44)
Right. True.
Right.
Ava Miles (25:05)
There are women holding this thing up like, Brock, well, you have my baby, OK? all of that is very much like what a hockey player's experience is or what his experience has been with women, what their experience is watching this hockey team. You know, I haven't had anybody say no, Ava really didn't really understand hockey. mean, you know, but, know, so having having like what the training's you know, talking about, for example, small little details like, for example, when they go on break.
Angela Haas (25:22)
no, yeah.
Cassie Newell (25:23)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (25:31)
OK, after the other, if they make the championship grade, if they make the Stanley Cup, but not every team does, they take their skates off for about six weeks. And that's a weird time for them. And I loved that because I was of course it would be. They walk around for a while without being on skates. And they need to. It's part of the training. And so to me, I'm always looking for gems that give that extra little input so that you can say, yeah, exactly. Absolutely, 100%.
I don't ever feel like I need to write to, I mean, it's just not who I am. Every book that I have from the beginning, my first book was about a war correspondent who was burned out coming back from Afghanistan. That was in Nora Roberts land, okay? Who writes about a war correspondent with that kind of accuracy? You know, so I just write the book I can, and I write the book, you know, like the one that's gonna make me the happiest, and thank God, it makes readers around the world pretty happy. So.
Angela Haas (26:08)
Yeah. Sounds like my kind of book
Yeah,
Cassie Newell (26:22)
Good,
Angela Haas (26:22)
our podcast is really for authors who find themselves in this. I published a book, Now What? kind of feeling where, they're in this awkward sophomore year.
of they're not starting at zero, but they're not, you know, not pros and they're still learning along the way. What have you learned along the way that if you could go back in time and knock on your door as you're writing that first book and say, okay, by the way, here's what I've learned. And don't forget to do this as you go forward. So what would you tell your
your past self who's just starting out.
Ava Miles (26:57)
I would probably tell my past self not to look at bad reviews.
I would tell my
Angela Haas (27:00)
that's what I
do and it psychs me out every time. All right.
Ava Miles (27:03)
I would say,
I would say don't give your power away. Don't give your power away. Because you don't know if that person is being triggered by something in your book. My best friend, like I said, international best friend and author Kate Perry, I mean, she like six million plus books and she was like apples like up there with James Patterson and EL James before she had a horrible seven year divorce in which he got half her books, by the way,
Angela Haas (27:07)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (27:08)
I love that.
Angela Haas (27:11)
Hmm.
Wow.
Ava Miles (27:26)
Please get prenups if you're an author or get postnups because you need the person that you're married to to respect your art. She never expected it. He was wealthy and he like gutted her and family law really sucks. Sorry. Copyright will not protect you. But anyway, long story short, she was telling me about this one person who had written 26 reasons that you shouldn't read her book. ⁓
Angela Haas (27:32)
my gosh.
Hahaha
Ava Miles (27:49)
star review and she said she probably spent more time writing the review than she actually read the book. But she said the fact that it made her so angry, whoever this person was, she said, obviously, it was like she hated the sister, she hated this. It was like, do you hate your sister? Do you hate this about your life? And she had, I mean, you she's a kung fu master. She's a very, like she has very good boundaries. She has no issues with like, I wouldn't say shame. She's never like dealt with the whole like, you know, am I good enough? Am I do I need to worry?
Angela Haas (27:59)
Right.
Ava Miles (28:16)
that stuff, things that I've had as a journey, being raised kind of the way I was and also kind of the experiences that I had when I was younger. And she thought it was absolutely hilarious. And I just thought, I remember this one woman from the UK when I first published, I don't remember what book it was, it was one of my first couple, and she called my book porn. And I was devastated. Okay.
dated. And I remember telling my neighbor
was one of my best friends. She died when she was 39 from breast cancer, but she was one of my huge advocates when I was first starting out. And I told her this and she was like, we're coming over to your house tonight for a barbecue. She's like, she was bringing her husband, we're going to get my other neighbor. And she's like, we're going to read this. She's like, I'm going to have the men tell you this is bullshit. Sorry, can I say that?
Cassie Newell (28:58)
Yeah,
Angela Haas (28:59)
Yes. ⁓
Cassie Newell (29:00)
that's fine.
Ava Miles (29:00)
So
like I have my two dear best friend guys, right? And they're reading aloud from my book and they're like laughing because they're like if this is porn they're like, you know, this is like the G-version and they are bestowing themselves laughing. Okay, which completely helped me but I was so offended and I was so angry that anybody would think that I had ever ever written anything like that because to me that was greatest insults that you would give me. Nothing against people who like do porn.
Angela Haas (29:12)
Right.
Cassie Newell (29:15)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (29:24)
Mm-hmm.
Ava Miles (29:29)
That's their choice. That was not what I was intending. And the fact that she thought that and she stuck that in a review, it was so, it bothered me for a long time. And now I look at that and I think, why did I let her bother me? Because whatever she's reading, obviously she wasn't reading anything anywhere near my book. mean, my book, usually get like one and half to two stars spicy peppers, right? I mean, like I am not a five, like five spicy pepper kind of person. But the fact that I let her,
Angela Haas (29:31)
Right.
Cassie Newell (29:36)
Mm.
Angela Haas (29:41)
Right.
Right, yeah.
Ava Miles (29:56)
upset me that much. I would say don't do that. Don't look at that. You know, I mean it's one thing to have craft issues which you can improve upon. know, okay, your few slips here. That's something your editor does. Like that is your friend. Your copy editor tells you, hey, your timeline's off, okay? But at the end of the day, you write a great book, you don't listen to that stuff.
Cassie Newell (29:59)
Yeah, that's great advice.
Angela Haas (30:04)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Cassie Newell (30:08)
Right.
Ava Miles (30:17)
And so, you know, I still struggle with that a little bit because, you know, it's like, okay, I want to make sure everybody has a good experience reading my book. The truth is, you can't control that. How people come, are they going to have a bad day? Are they going to be in a bad marriage? Are they looking for something? You don't know that. So when they put that review up, you don't know what's going on in their head. And so if you let yourself give away your power, you're giving away your creativity and you're giving away, in some respects, your imagination, your soul, and everything that you dedicated to that book. And so I would say to that younger self, don't do that anymore.
Angela Haas (30:18)
All right.
Cassie Newell (30:28)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (30:45)
Don't do that.
Angela Haas (30:46)
Yeah.
That is so helpful because I let reviews devastate me. Even, you know, my first romance, I was really trying to find my lane because I like to have steaminess, but not graphic language, just because that's just not what I even really like to read. But,
Ava Miles (31:03)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (31:07)
It was funny that the younger, I like to explore, you know, like some traumas and how people get over them to fall in love. And so the first book was about men who can be abused. mean, male abuse is out there, but they just don't talk about it. But the younger readers wanted to slap my male main character over the head because he just wasn't falling in love like that and getting over it. And the older women were like, I get it.
But then I let those reviews like hurt me because I worked so hard on it. And I'm like, you wanted to slap him? No, that's the opposite, you know? But you're right. Like, I want to learn from feedback, but also it gets in your head. And then you start to like tailor your next thing for how these few people like experienced that one book and you can't do that. So yeah.
Cassie Newell (31:55)
But then you got to, well, in my
opinion, you switch to your very top five star reviews. Those should always outweigh what your one comment was made. Like go with the majority. I find it really interesting, and I find this more in females, that we tend to gravitate to the one negative comment versus the thousands or hundreds of positive comments.
Angela Haas (32:00)
Yes.
Yeah.
Ava Miles (32:20)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Angela Haas (32:20)
Totally. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (32:21)
Like I've really learned that over my own age to just really put that into perspective because sometimes
you can't, I say this all the time, see the forest for the trees when you get myopic about one little thing. I have a, I don't know, I read my reviews and I get pumped up. I get really excited by it, but I don't spend a lot of time anything that's really low because I figured A, it wasn't for them to begin with.
Ava Miles (32:34)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (32:49)
I'm not going to change anything as a result of that. So that's really not something that I need to know. So yeah.
Ava Miles (32:55)
Yeah, that's a blessing. That's a blessing.
And like, you should honor that in yourself. You know, I will say, you know, to being kind to women, because I think this is true, women are signaled out a lot more and shamed. And I think that's why we do take things so strongly is there is shame, there's punishment, there's embarrassment, humiliation. When a boy acts out in class, we think, oh, it's a boy being a boy.
Cassie Newell (32:59)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (33:07)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (33:15)
We don't humiliate and signal them out like we do girls. And so I feel like we are conditioned from an early age to take that more seriously because it has been more serious for us when we were in school and when we were in other situations. And so I tend to be kind to that inner part of me who felt that way and be like, okay, that's why, but I don't need to lead from that anymore as a woman because I can be strong and I can be empowered and I can still love that part of me who's like.
Cassie Newell (33:16)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (33:28)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (33:36)
Right.
Ava Miles (33:40)
gosh, I really wish that that person had got that book. And also I wish that they had loved that character as much as I did, but I can't control that. And I would say for you, that's your journey too, right? Is like being able to sort of say, hey, whatever that person experiences doesn't necessarily reflect the truth of me. There's a great sports commentator, I don't know if you know him, his name is Chris Fowler. Do you know him?
Cassie Newell (33:46)
No, you can't control that. Yeah.
Angela Haas (33:46)
Right.
Yeah, I probably should.
Ava Miles (34:04)
Okay, he does tennis, does football, he's on ESPN. I love Chris Fowler because he also does a lot of stuff about personal transformation. Chris Fowler said something that I thought was fabulous and something that I have been moving towards is he said, don't believe your negative reviews and don't believe your positive reviews. He said, I only believe what you believe.
Cassie Newell (34:21)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (34:21)
and the people that are close to you. Because he said the other parts, he's like, they
don't know you, they don't know your truth, it's just noise. So he's like, don't believe the worst reviews, don't believe the best reviews, because he said, it's still not close enough inside of you to really be the truth. And I thought, okay, that's higher level. And I was like, that's where I've been moving, because I was like, that's true. And that's a really nice way to do it.
Cassie Newell (34:36)
I like that.
Angela Haas (34:43)
⁓ well, and I think as women sometimes we're harder on each other. Why is that? Because some of the most painful reviews, right, but like one of the most scathing reviews I got on my superhero, my older women superhero fiction was from a woman who just blew it out of the water.
Ava Miles (34:44)
It's a human experience, right? I mean, we always have those little hits because sometimes people really want to go and like, dig at you.
Cassie Newell (34:47)
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, I really just like that.
Angela Haas (35:10)
And it was like that, I'm not saying don't be gentle on me because I'm a woman, but what she was saying was so not even in the realm of feedback, you know? the cat has appeared. Our joke is when the cat butt comes on, it's almost time to wrap up because she's like, excuse me. So, but I noticed this too, that I've read where
Cassie Newell (35:22)
Sorry, I'm just gonna move her real quick.
Angela Haas (35:35)
women are harder on the female main characters. Like they can't get away with the stuff that the male gets away with. So that like is always in the back of my mind because I've read other people's one star reviews that are scathing that they just don't, they like the man and they hate the women. And I'm like, huh, is that, I mean, some of it is justified. I mean, I've read some books where like I couldn't stand the woman because there's a whole other conversation around
Cassie Newell (35:39)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (36:02)
I feel like we're confusing strength with bitchiness. Like, no. But why are we harder on other women as women? that's probably too existential for what we're going on right here with this podcast. But gosh, ladies, we need to be gentler with each other and a little more supportive there.
Cassie Newell (36:22)
We just need to celebrate
our accomplishments and stop criticizing how we got there sometimes, I think too, because I think people get, we get jealous pretty easily too, I've noticed just as a, and you don't see that so much with men. I'm sure there's power plays, you do see that, but I also think it's a generational thing too.
Angela Haas (36:29)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (36:41)
Well, I think it's, yeah,
I think power is a little bit different for men than it is for women. Envy is little stronger for women. And power is kind of, I feel like it's kind of the main ingredient for men. I mean, I do think, I mean, to me, maybe this is, I mean, I hate to think this is an age thing, but like whatever happened to like not saying something like publicly, like something that's
Cassie Newell (36:46)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (36:47)
and
Yeah.
Right. Right.
Ava Miles (37:04)
resonate for you something doesn't hit like keep it to yourself like why do you have to
Angela Haas (37:08)
Exactly.
Cassie Newell (37:09)
Right, we don't need to know that you had a Diet Coke
today. Like people just wanna talk all the time and post it in these grand forums and I find it a little ridiculous.
Angela Haas (37:13)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (37:18)
Well,
I'm all for expressing anger. I'm going to have written a self-help book about it. But it's like, express your anger in a constructive, healthy way with people, not publicly, not blaming other people, not going and trying to crucify or take somebody else down. It's like, whatever.
Angela Haas (37:33)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (37:34)
into that. know, it's like, you know, be kind, like, say less. There's no need for you to have to do that. And so, you know, like, I, you know, like people, people kind of want to express and people really are in a place where there's a lot of blame in the world. And people really want like, they want to swing their bats. And that's just too bad. Because I think there's a lot of there's a lot of things that if we focused on feeling good and feeling like we could support each other, we would do so much more. And, you know, that's, that's how I live. that's where I live.
Angela Haas (37:47)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (38:01)
love
also that this hockey book is really about the human condition, right? Because that's, that's what you're you're tying it to. So ⁓ just to kind of make sure everybody knows like, where can they find you and this particular book and all of your books?
Ava Miles (38:06)
Yes. yeah.
Yeah.
well, you can find me at www.AvaMiles.com. but of course you can find all my books on Amazon, and they're in Kindle Unlimited. You can also find them in print on Barnes and Noble. and, yeah, I think it's really important to talk about that being what it means to be a human. That's one that I loved. I had an influencer who picked up one of my favorite scenes is in which the researchers are talking about being in love and she's talking about like, there's always been war and poverty and broken hearts and like somehow we've
Angela Haas (38:32)
Yeah.
Ava Miles (38:44)
always managed to survive and it's like you will also rise from this because that's the human experience and I love that this one influencer like she picked that out as one of her favorite things because I thought well this is kind of perfect because we have been the same since the dawn of time. It doesn't matter if our brains are bigger or smaller, our clubs are bigger or smaller or you know like we walk a certain way or we're hairy or what have you. It's like the human emotion, the human experience, the relational experience that we have has been going on for a long time.
and as someone who has worked all around the world and seen some of the best in people and some of the absolute most terrifying worst in people, it's like seeing that chapestry and being able to talk about that I think is great being able to do it and like an unsuspecting romcom.
Angela Haas (39:27)
Right.
Cassie Newell (39:27)
love that. I love that so much.
Angela Haas (39:28)
I love that. Well, I think we still have a moment to do.
Cassie Newell (39:33)
Yeah, I was going to say let's move to our table topics.
Angela Haas (39:37)
This is a great way to end.
Which fictional character would you adopt into your extended family to make gatherings more interesting?
Cassie Newell (39:47)
Which fictional character would we adopt to make Fetly Gathered? It's more interesting.
Angela Haas (39:47)
you
Ava Miles (39:53)
Well,
I mean, you know, it's funny because I thought you were before you said adopt into like the family. was like, OK, I know what I was going to say. And then I'm like, OK, I got to say something different. I think I would pick I would pick I would pick one of my favorite heroes of all time. I mean, he's also my readers favorites of all time. Country singer Ray Crenshaw, he was in my first book in Dare River, my Dare River series.
disowned from his southern family, didn't want to do law, left because he ended up getting a country music deal and became actually an absolute family man despite being a bad boy who he was like Tim McGraw, you know, I'm a real bad boy, but I'm a good man. I was like, Fabulous, funny, like heartfelt, like a good guy. And so I think if I was going to do like he'd make family gatherings and barbecues a lot better.
Angela Haas (40:27)
Ooh, I love that. Love it.
Yeah, I'd show up to that. I'd crash that. I, it would be like one of the Jane Austen characters like Elizabeth Bennet, just sitting in the corner with her book and then just making snide comments and snide observations just from that era. Just be like, hmm, you know,
Ava Miles (40:42)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (40:54)
Yeah
You're making
Well, I kind of wanted to go from Ava's point of view from my books and I was thinking, Holt Hawthorne, because he's a chef and who doesn't want a chef at a family gathering to make like the best food ever? And then part of me was like, I don't know. Part of me wanted to have like a mythical magical person too. Cause wouldn't that be fun? Like Gandalf at your family gathering with the fireworks and.
Angela Haas (41:07)
⁓ yeah, absolutely.
laughs
Yes. Just... ⁓
Cassie Newell (41:23)
things like that. I don't want to be associated
Ava Miles (41:25)
He sees that horrible
person.
Cassie Newell (41:27)
with an adventure necessarily, but
Angela Haas (41:31)
Well, then your family would be like, I'm sorry, who is the man smoking the pipe in the corner with the wizard hat on? Okay. Yeah, that would be amazing. Okay, cool.
Cassie Newell (41:36)
Right. I love it. But yeah.
Ava Miles (41:41)
It
didn't even dawn on me to choose somebody out of my universe. That's so funny. I was like, oh yeah. I can't choose my 80 year old like that. I always love to go and talk about because you know, he was in all like 17, 18, 20 books. I love my, my 80 year old, my 80 year old guy. But I was like, I can't, can't adopt him necessarily.
Cassie Newell (41:45)
I love it.
Angela Haas (41:56)
Those are the best.
I guess you could.
Cassie Newell (41:59)
Right. Well, can we adopt any of them? mean, anyway.
Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate having you on. And don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you listen to the podcast. Really helps us with visibility. Next week is a new month. And we're going to start our character study where we spend a month discussing all things character, which is my favorite thing.
Ava Miles (42:07)
It was really fun.
Angela Haas (42:22)
Hmm.
Cassie Newell (42:23)
So till
next week, keep writing, keep doing, and thank you so much, Ava.
Ava Miles (42:28)
Thank you. was pleasure. Bye.
Angela Haas (42:28)
Thank you.
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