Episode 37
· 49:45
Angela Haas (00:18)
Welcome to episode 37. I'm Angela Haas and I'm here with my co-host Cassie Newell and this month we're doing deep dives into different genres. Today we're talking with award-winning fantasy sci-fi author David Hankins. David is the award-winning author of Death and the Taxman.
Cassie Newell (00:44)
Hello.
Angela Haas (00:44)
He raised
from the thriving cornfields of Iowa where he lives with his wife, daughter, and two dragons disguised as cats. His short stories have graced the pages of Writers of the Future, volume 39, Amazing Stories, Dream Forge Magazine, Escape Pod, Unidentified Funny Objects 9, and others. He devotes his time to his passions of writing, traveling, and finding new ways to pay his mortgage.
Yeah, like the rest of us. Welcome, David. Thank you so much for being here.
Cassie Newell (01:14)
Okay.
David Hankins (01:15)
Yeah. ⁓
Cassie Newell (01:16)
I love it.
David Hankins (01:20)
Well, thank you so much for having me and so glad we are able to connect.
Angela Haas (01:25)
Yes, so there's so much to discuss with you, but tell us a little bit about how you got started on your writer journey and then all those accolades. mean, that obviously didn't happen overnight unless it did and you've got some secret formula.
David Hankins (01:39)
It did not happen overnight. So
I started in the oral tradition of convincing my daughter to go to sleep with inventive bedtime stories. I borrowed from the classics a bit, ⁓ chucked the protagonist and put my daughter in. So she was the one fighting the dragons and rescuing the princesses and whatever. ⁓ So clearly my plan to get her to go to sleep failed miserably. ⁓ But then...
Cassie Newell (02:07)
Yeah.
David Hankins (02:07)
Over time, those stories grew into two and a half novels worth of storyline and she kept poking holes in it going, wait, last night you said, so I had to start writing it down. And so that's how I got into writing. ⁓ And then as far as actually getting published in the accolades and stuff like that, after taking the first of my novels that I thought was the next best thing since sliced bread and sending it out to all the agents and the agents
Angela Haas (02:13)
Okay.
David Hankins (02:37)
not even responding, ⁓ I realized I needed to try something different.
So I looked for a short story contest, and the first thing to pop up on Google was Writers of the Future. I had no idea what that was. And I was like, well, maybe, because I've never studied anything about writing, maybe I should take an online writing class, free online writing class, Writers of the Future. Okay, clearly I need to check out these guys. And so I got into Writers of the Future. ⁓
took their online class, which is all ⁓ free, self-paced, outstanding classes that made me go, that's what I'm missing. And I wrote my first short story with that. That story earned an honorable mention with Writers of the Future. And at that point, I was hooked on short stories. And so I just kept writing short stories. I found Wolf's Moon's ⁓ Wolf Pack through that.
Angela Haas (03:26)
Wow.
David Hankins (03:36)
and started studying his way of ⁓
Angela Haas (03:37)
Thank
David Hankins (03:39)
writing and he has a way of making things sound so crisp and simple, whereas other books on writing I've read, it seems very complex. anyway, but through a lot of study and just a lot of writing, I won Writers of the Future within 18 months of when I found them.
Cassie Newell (03:57)
Wow, that's impressive.
Angela Haas (03:58)
Wow, that's incredible.
David Hankins (04:00)
And it's
just been kind of the same trajectory since then. I sold 20 short stories in the last two years. I've got two novels now that I've self-published. Grab these so I can hold them up. So two novels I've self-published as well as two collections in the same world. ⁓ so, yeah, that's kind of where it started. And the rest of the accolades have
Angela Haas (04:05)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (04:23)
Nice.
David Hankins (04:30)
come as I've continued to write.
Cassie Newell (04:33)
Wow.
So you began with short stories. So what's the biggest shift you experienced moving from short form storytelling to novel length projects?
Angela Haas (04:34)
Thank you. Thank you.
David Hankins (04:43)
The best description I've heard of short story versus long is you're taking a boat across a lake. You're gonna get across the lake whether you're using a speedboat or a rowboat, but it's
a matter of how long it takes. So short stories are the speedboat. You get in the boat, you get to the other side, and you get out and you're done. Whereas the novels, that's the rowboat. You stick around, you're enjoying the view.
Angela Haas (05:03)
Okay. Yeah.
David Hankins (05:10)
got a lot more that can go wrong on the way. And so for me, it was figuring out how to fill in that space. my short story that won writers of the future was
Cassie Newell (05:11)
right.
David Hankins (05:25)
the original of Death and the Taxman. And so I took that short story and I expanded it into a full length novel. And the way the story is written, I had to have the same opening and closing scenes. So I had to fill in the middle.
Cassie Newell (05:27)
⁓ interesting.
Sure.
Angela Haas (05:39)
Well.
David Hankins (05:40)
and I didn't want
to have just filler. So it was figuring out how do I create those sub story arcs? How do I have more ⁓ beats of problems that he hits? And, you know, it still has to keep getting worse and worse and worse as he's going through, you know, to increase attention. So it's really figuring out how to fill out what I was writing. Cause I have a tendency to write very short and tight now.
Angela Haas (05:44)
So,
Cassie Newell (06:06)
⁓ Interesting.
Angela Haas (06:08)
Yeah, I can't do that. I mean, I think it's something I will challenge myself with. I think it's the years of overthinking that I can't, be short, you know, I would want to add and add and add. But that's interesting I didn't know that book started as a short short story. So were you like doing your taxes? And you're like, this feels like death and ⁓
There's a story here. ⁓
David Hankins (06:32)
Not quite. Not quite. So yes, I do have a history of, did get audited by the IRS and maybe the villain is an eye, is an auditor, not he's hell's auditor. He's not an IRS auditor, but ⁓ no, it actually was a combination of things. So when I wrote the story, the coordinating judge for writers of the future, Dave Farland had passed away just a couple of weeks prior.
Cassie Newell (06:33)
I wanna kill him.
Angela Haas (06:43)
Hahaha
Mm
David Hankins (06:59)
And so I was very deep in the Writers of the Future community, lots of outpouring of grief and stuff like that. And Wolf Moon gave us a writing prompt at the time, because he gives writing prompts every week to help build your writing skills. And it was winning the rigged game. Well, I was like, death is the ultimate rigged game.
Angela Haas (07:24)
hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Hankins (07:24)
The Grim Reaper
always wins. What if he didn't?
Cassie Newell (07:27)
Right.
David Hankins (07:29)
What if he lost? What if he became human? Would he fight to stay alive as strenuously as we do? initially I tried writing this deep, heartfelt story and it just didn't work. Humor kept popping into it. So was like, you know what? I'm gonna dive into the humor. ⁓ I'd written a couple things that kind of edge toward humor, but nothing that I'd really just gone all for like Terry Pratchett or Douglas Adams.
Cassie Newell (07:56)
Great.
David Hankins (07:57)
And this one I did and it worked. And that's kind of where I discovered my voice of writing lighthearted fantasy and science fiction.
Cassie Newell (08:07)
I love that.
Angela Haas (08:07)
Right.
But there's a difference, but you're sort of a satirist though, aren't you? Isn't it satire? Or what's the difference for listeners who are like, I'm interested in this, but what really makes satire satire? What's just something that's humorous?
David Hankins (08:13)
⁓ It is, it is South Tartar.
So I'll point out that I did not consider it satire until John Goodwin from Art is the Future sat me down and said, this is what satire is, this is not satire. You have written satire about bureaucracies. I was like, oh, I guess I have, huh. But to me, just humor is things that we deal with in our everyday lives. You have the regular and then that twist.
Angela Haas (08:30)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Cassie Newell (08:42)
I love that.
David Hankins (08:53)
the unexpected thing that makes you laugh. That's kind of the humor that I was aiming for. We deal with bureaucracy every day, so that's a lot of what my humor is about. Well, satire takes a look at a specific thing, whether it's politics or, in my case, bureaucracies, and looks at it through a warped lens. so looking at it through the warped lens, we can see, oh yeah,
Cassie Newell (08:54)
Mm-hmm.
David Hankins (09:23)
That's what you're talking about. ⁓ But we can still laugh at the absurdity of the thing. And hopefully someone walks away thinking, ⁓ that was really funny. We can do better with that thing that was satirized. So ⁓ they're very closely related. ⁓ People that go deep into satire, they actually have a lot less humor because they're trying to make their point. I think mine worked really well because I focused on
Angela Haas (09:35)
Right.
Cassie Newell (09:49)
⁓
David Hankins (09:53)
humor and it happened to trip into satire as well.
Cassie Newell (09:58)
Nice.
Angela Haas (09:59)
I love Dave Barry. You know, I mean, that's like, like my, well, Dave Barry and Douglas Adams just were my first real writing inspirations for humor. But they always were looking at something that needed
David Hankins (10:01)
yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
Angela Haas (10:15)
change, but I think sometimes when you come in from a humorous scope versus a dramatic one, it doesn't close people off sometimes because everyone responds to something they find funny, you know, and it keeps that conversation open. So that's, that's really interesting.
David Hankins (10:16)
Right. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
And that's one thing I love
about Terry Pratchett and his Discworld series. ⁓ He always poked very sharply at our modern world. I don't think there was any part of it that he didn't poke at some point. And yet, because it was presented through the lens of fantasy, people can laugh at it, enjoy it, and go, yeah, slavery is wrong. Discrimination is wrong because they're seeing it in
Angela Haas (10:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Hankins (11:01)
the scope of ⁓ trolls and orcs or trolls and dwarves instead of humans and humans. And so having that slight pull back made it accessible to more people.
Cassie Newell (11:11)
Right.
Angela Haas (11:11)
Right.
Cassie Newell (11:15)
So comedy and kind of fantasy, that can be tricky, because if you go too far, it breaks immersion, right? And if you hold back, it tends to fall flat. So what's your advice for writers on weaving humor into fantastical worlds in a way that enhances rather than undercuts the story?
David Hankins (11:22)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
So I would say, ⁓ so first with ⁓ any rising tension, as you're writing your story, you always wanna have rising tension. And so you're supposed to ask, what's the next worst thing that can happen? And then that's what you go toward, the bad result of the good thing that they did. Well, with humor, you...
Angela Haas (11:35)
Wow, good question, Cassie. ⁓
Cassie Newell (11:46)
Right.
I see.
David Hankins (12:02)
add in, you you still want rising tension, the bad thing that can happen, but what's the crazy thing that can happen too? And so at the same time, and you hopefully it's the same thing, or maybe you're like, ⁓ okay,
Cassie Newell (12:11)
at the same time.
Love it.
Angela Haas (12:17)
.
David Hankins (12:17)
the really bad thing, you know, the person's going to die. Well, that's a downer. Hopefully we're not going to be laughing at that particular thing, but maybe there, you know, we get some dark humor in the
Angela Haas (12:20)
Okay. Okay.
Cassie Newell (12:26)
Right.
David Hankins (12:31)
the things surrounding it, you know, that it gets silly as we lead up to that serious moment. And then it's at that high and low of, man, I'm really laughing at this. my goodness, they actually died. And so that is ⁓ what can make it effective. And with humor, as with any kind of tension, you want to have that wave form. So it can't be all laughs all the time. That's where you break ⁓ suspension of disbelief.
Cassie Newell (12:37)
Mm-hmm.
right.
David Hankins (12:59)
If people are just throwing crazy after crazy after crazy without any serious to bring it to ground it again, it's not gonna work. People just go, okay, I laughed a little bit, but it's too much. Whereas on the other hand, if it's all serious, serious, serious, it builds too much tension and you need a break. And so you have that one character that just pops off a one liner and you're like, okay. And now it can get serious again.
Cassie Newell (13:11)
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
David Hankins (13:26)
And so that's how you can pull humor in. If you're just using it to relieve tension, find those spots where it's too hot. You had it going for a chapter or three of just tension, bring it down a little bit, and then you can bring it up more, because the mind, your soul needs that little bit of a break. And if you're doing all a humor story, you have to have those breaks of...
normalcy, those breaks of seriousness. So like for Death of the Taxman, I've got entire chapters where there's not a single joke. He has, know, there's one point where he's having a memory dream sequence that ends in the one character that he loves getting banished to hell for 5,000 years. And it's just, it's a dark chapter. And then I followed that with this very cute, endearing chapter about
Cassie Newell (14:02)
Right.
Angela Haas (14:14)
Mm.
David Hankins (14:20)
telling a story to a three-year-old. And so it's that cycle.
Angela Haas (14:24)
and humor is very subjective, which what makes you laugh doesn't make me laugh all the time. But you just have to put a little bit of yourself, what you find interesting and funny and humorous,
David Hankins (14:27)
Mm-hmm. It is.
Angela Haas (14:36)
That's what Marvel movies do beautifully. There's a heavy action sequence, a little drama, and then there's a what the one liner, which brings everyone back, you know? Yeah, the ribbing the one liner. Yeah.
David Hankins (14:46)
Right. Well, and you
Cassie Newell (14:46)
The ribbing between them.
David Hankins (14:51)
can even have those silly moments as long as it's believable in your world. So I don't know if you watched the new Superman that just came out, but I thought it was really good. I didn't like the three Supermans before it because they were way too serious. This one, I think, had a really good balance of serious and humor. ⁓
Angela Haas (14:57)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (15:02)
Not yet!
Angela Haas (15:03)
I haven't seen it
yet.
David Hankins (15:16)
And like there is, I can't remember the dog's name, but Superdog, that he's part of the story. And every time he comes on the screen, it's that silliness. He's like attacking Superman to lick him all over the face. He's chasing the bomb that looks like a ball, whatever it is. And it works in the world. It's really ridiculously silly. And it adds that break of tension to the serious things that are either just happened or are about to happen.
Cassie Newell (15:19)
Mm-hmm.
David Hankins (15:44)
And it works because it's part of the world. And so you can accept the silly.
Cassie Newell (15:44)
Right.
Right, and you have to be consistent with it because when you're not consistent that also can kind of break things out.
Angela Haas (15:51)
Well, pretty much, yeah, yeah.
David Hankins (15:53)
Right.
Mm-mm.
Angela Haas (15:58)
Yeah, pretty much anything with a dog or cat, I feel like, I mean, it's like a no brainer.
David Hankins (16:04)
I will
give one spoiler in my book. I have a cat and cats can actually travel to hell on their own. So they do that in the secret places, like when they go hide under the couch and they disappeared, you're like, where'd you go? They actually went down to hell to have someone who would actually show them the obeisance that they deserve.
Cassie Newell (16:14)
Of course they can.
⁓ I love it.
Angela Haas (16:28)
my gosh, okay, right there. Why isn't there a cat on the cover? Why wasn't it just a cat? I mean, I just think.
Cassie Newell (16:30)
makes total sense.
David Hankins (16:34)
⁓ So, ironically, on the cover
of Grimm's World Tales, which is a collection, it's a photograph of the cat is on the desk. So that's Diana.
Angela Haas (16:40)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (16:43)
I love it.
So I understand your ex military too, right? And you've traveled the world quite a bit. Has any of those experiences influenced some of your fantasy worlds as well? How so?
David Hankins (16:47)
I am.
very much so. Yep. So
I did 20 years in the army as a logistics officer, lived for 10 years of that in Germany. And so there's a lot of German influence in my writing. So anytime I have to pull out a name or something, German just wants to pop into it. So I have in Death and Taxman an entire scene set in
Cassie Newell (17:12)
I love.
Angela Haas (17:18)
Mm-hmm.
David Hankins (17:22)
a German restaurant in Colorado Springs, Edelweiss, which I absolutely love that restaurant. It's fantastic. And so I was like, yes, I want to add Edelweiss into the book because it's German. I can talk about all the German food and it's amazing. And I knew that I'd actually managed to get it right because one of my first reviewers was a reader from Germany. And he was just like, ⁓ this is amazing.
Angela Haas (17:28)
Yes.
Ooh.
David Hankins (17:48)
You know, he caught so many of the jokes that I made that only if you speak the German language will you get it.
So right now I'm working again for the US Army as a contractor and my job, travel the world to Army garrisons all around the world doing inspections. And so as I travel, ⁓ I get to,
Angela Haas (18:08)
I see.
David Hankins (18:12)
get more experiences
to pull into my book. Like last year I traveled to Okinawa, Japan. And so I just explored the island, got a whole bunch of ideas. And one of my short stories in here takes place in Okinawa, Japan.
Cassie Newell (18:15)
Well, that's great.
I it.
Nice. I love that.
Angela Haas (18:31)
Wow, okay.
⁓ That's amazing. And I'm sure you get like inspiration from for characters and how much of yourself do you put in your books?
David Hankins (18:39)
Mm-hmm.
a character who is, know, it's me. There's no getting around it. He is a disgruntled retired, well, disgruntled army logistician, you know, who now works in corporate life. I'm like, yeah, yep. That's me.
Angela Haas (18:48)
You ⁓
Cassie Newell (18:48)
It's me. I love it.
I love it. I love it.
Angela Haas (19:01)
So how much
military influence are in your books?
David Hankins (19:05)
⁓
so that's actually kind of an interesting thought because a lot of military, know they write the military sci-fi, lots of action and guns and explosions. And that's, that wasn't my experience in the military. I I deployed several times, you know, saw some action, but most of my struggles were with people and bureaucracy. And so that's what I write about. I write about the
Angela Haas (19:14)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Hankins (19:33)
silly, stupid stuff that we dealt with, the pranks that we play on each other. Those have definitely fallen into my stories. I have one that's coming out in an anthology soon ⁓ called Murder Fish. And it's all stories with fish with murderous intent. ⁓ the story is about this young
magician's apprentice who gets sent on a quest to go find bottled fish farts.
And he's like, that is not a real thing. I know it's not a real thing, but I have to go do it because I've been sent on this quest. And so it's a silly quest about fighting fish farts. And that's the kind of thing that we do in the army. We're like, hey, Lieutenant, who's brand new and you don't know anything, we're going to send you on a quest. And as it goes up to different people, hey, I'm looking for the people. Everyone else knows that it's not real. ⁓ yeah, I don't have it. But I think if you talk to Sergeant So-and-So, he might have a bag of that.
Angela Haas (20:05)
Yeah. Okay.
Cassie Newell (20:10)
It's a quest.
David Hankins (20:30)
The
game is to see how long you can keep it going. And so that kind of stuff, those ⁓ silly fun experiences, those definitely get into my writing a lot.
Cassie Newell (20:41)
I love it.
Angela Haas (20:41)
I think,
I think we just reached a milestone. I can say that this is the first time fish farts has ever been mentioned on the podcast. mean, wow.
Let's mark it. It's amazing. Episode 37, the episode with fish farts That'll be the magic clip. That'll be the reel that comes out.
David Hankins (20:58)
Fish Yep. Well, and my story is titled
Fish Farts, a love story.
Cassie Newell (21:04)
I love it. That's awesome.
Angela Haas (21:04)
⁓ that's a new twist.
That's another plot twist. Okay. Well, I was doing some research because my romance takes place on a ranch that doubles as a place for vets to come home and transition back. So that was the interesting thing that I found out is just...
David Hankins (21:20)
Hmm, okay.
Angela Haas (21:26)
the camaraderie, like just the razzing and the pranks and you know, it's it isn't always like danger, danger, danger. Sometimes you're sort of sitting and waiting or waiting for this order or this change. Hurry up and wait. Yeah. So what is it about? Is it about like
David Hankins (21:30)
Yup.
Mm-hmm. Hurry up and wait is one of our most common phrases. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (21:44)
Yep, hurry up and wait.
David Hankins (21:47)
Well, partly it's
Angela Haas (21:48)
Rassing the
David Hankins (21:48)
about...
Angela Haas (21:49)
new recruits and getting them kind of acclimated or is it about making sure you don't go crazy?
David Hankins (21:52)
Well, mean, yeah, part of it
is that, you know, inducting the new people into the culture. Lots of cultures do that in different ways. The military does it with kind of dark humor. And so whether it's that rousing of the new guy or, you know, as you're sitting around waiting for the action to start, you know, poking fun at each other and, you know, with, you know, frankly, kind of mean jokes, but everyone laughs and then...
They jab right back and it's just kind of the part of that camaraderie and you're building the camaraderie so that as you go to do the dangerous things, you're part of the team.
Cassie Newell (22:36)
I was just curious. every, and since you write humor, I'm like, every writer has quirks, right? Some need coffee, some need
silence, some need chaos. What's one unusual habit or ritual that helps you get into the writing mode?
David Hankins (22:51)
⁓ so music is actually the one for me. and it's not by choice. So, I have, for a while I was teleworking, you know, COVID and all that. And so, and my organization, we kept the teleworking much longer. in fact, I didn't go back to the office until January. and so teleworking, I could work in pure silence.
Cassie Newell (22:58)
⁓
David Hankins (23:15)
at my desk, you know, and if I had no actual work to do, move over to my computer, do some writing, okay, work pops up, but I have silence in my head. ⁓ Whereas now, if I'm at work and I want to write over lunch, I'm in a cubicle, in a cubicle farm. There's lots of noise and people and distractions.
Cassie Newell (23:26)
Right.
David Hankins (23:39)
And so if I want to concentrate on something, if I want to concentrate on something I'm writing for work, because I write operations orders and stuff like that, I have to put on my headphones to block out everyone else. so noise canceling headphones and even the noise cancellation does not block out the loud people in the next cubicle over. They are very loud. And so I'll put on music and I've discovered that there are certain, like, you know, music will help me mood wise.
Cassie Newell (23:50)
so like noise canceling headphones? Yeah.
Angela Haas (23:59)
Hmm.
David Hankins (24:08)
as I'm writing. So if I have an action scene, I've got a few different ⁓ artists that I'll listen to that kind of trick my brain into, okay, we're ready to write. ⁓ If I'm on a lower tone, I got some others that will work for that. So yeah, it's more to block things out.
Cassie Newell (24:19)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (24:27)
Cassie, what about you? Do you have quirks?
Cassie Newell (24:29)
Yeah, I use music
too. But it's really funny. think I may have told Angela this before, but it has to be songs I really, really know well. And I got on a kick specifically after Bridgerton, not that I write historical romance, but I loved hearing current music that was lyricless. So I like instrumental pop, the current.
Angela Haas (24:52)
Hmm.
Cassie Newell (24:56)
and I'll listen to Country too without the lyrics. And when the lyrics aren't on, it doesn't, unless I know the song well, it doesn't really interfere with what I'm trying to get through. So I kind of, I kind of love that, but it's funny because I'll be listening to a very popular song that is now instrumental. And sometimes I catch myself doing the lyrics along.
David Hankins (25:20)
You're singing along.
Cassie Newell (25:22)
And I am not a ⁓ fabulous singer. can sing, but like I shouldn't be, ⁓ you know, trying to duplicate someone.
David Hankins (25:27)
Have you ever found yourself actually typing the words to the song into your manuscript? You're like no no no backspace
Angela Haas (25:31)
Uh-oh. That happened to me one time.
Cassie Newell (25:32)
No, yet. That's not happened to me. Although I did make some references
and my editor was really great and they were like, ⁓ I think we need to pull these out. These could be copyright issues. So yeah, you really have to be careful of that for sure. Angela, do you listen to music?
Angela Haas (25:41)
⁓
David Hankins (25:49)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (25:52)
If I am it depends on what I'm writing when I'm I have kind of soundtracks that I like to write to when I'm doing like the superhero stuff and Another thing that's great for everyone is something called My Noise. net
Cassie Newell (26:10)
okay.
Angela Haas (26:10)
I believe
that's it. I'm going to just double check. Yeah. my noise.net. And it is this incredible database of all kinds of sounds. So if you want to, if you're writing fantasy and you want a medieval library, it has the scribble of the pen. It has the little, creaking of the door with the wind outside.
And there was one where it's just spaceship sounds. So what it might be, what it might sound like to move through space. If there was a scene where they were camping and I needed forest sounds just to feel like I was there. I love it. Go to my noise.net
David Hankins (26:49)
I like it.
Cassie Newell (26:51)
I like it too.
Angela Haas (26:53)
You can support them or not. They run based on donations, but they have all kinds of sounds too, especially like for people with sensory issues, ADHD, all kinds of things that help you, tinnitus, like tinnitus, they have sounds for that. If there's a sound that exists, they have it. So that's like if I want to write really immersively, but it's so weird when it's silent.
Cassie Newell (27:12)
They have it.
Angela Haas (27:19)
that's when my mind wanders. So whatever I'm writing also if I'm not listening to music I have to have a movie on that when yeah when then yeah
David Hankins (27:22)
Mmm.
Cassie Newell (27:27)
Yeah, I do this. I tend to be that way too. I
got onto YouTube because I also sometimes, I like to be mobile sometimes when I'm writing. So I'll just have my iPad and I'll be in front of the TV. And I've gone to YouTube, the app, and I'll go to, my husband was laughing, because here it is summer. And I had on one of those screensaver ones where they have like the music that goes with whatever scenery is there.
Angela Haas (27:54)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah,
David Hankins (27:56)
Nice
Cassie Newell (27:56)
I had Christmas
Angela Haas (27:56)
I love those.
Cassie Newell (27:57)
on because I'm writing a Christmas and he's like, it's 90 and you got a fireplace and snow coming in. I was like, it sets the mood, but you know, there's like sound with it. Yeah. I love those.
Angela Haas (27:59)
Mm-hmm.
Totally. Yeah, I have to those on, but I just like,
David Hankins (28:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Angela Haas (28:13)
I've been rewatching 90s comedy, like romantic comedies, like When Harry Met Sally, just to have something that fills the space. And so when that silence is filled, then I can focus. That doesn't make any sense, but.
David Hankins (28:29)
Actually, it makes complete sense because you have to have something to block out
otherwise your brain is looking for something.
Angela Haas (28:35)
Right. Yes. Yeah. It's like focusing on some click somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (28:35)
Yeah.
or my to-do list starts hitting in my head.
David Hankins (28:41)
it down. I'm like, okay, it's written down so I can forget about it now and come back to writing.
Angela Haas (28:45)
Yeah, it's just like let me file this in my special folder called the trash. That's where my to-do list goes. No, no Angela. I'm not like that. I actually Well, I used to have post-it notes everywhere. This is a sidebar. Let me also sell this product to you this thing is the greatest thing ever because it's a glass board where you make your lists and then
David Hankins (28:50)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (29:05)
I've seen that.
David Hankins (29:11)
Okay.
Angela Haas (29:13)
You just dry erase it whenever you're done. So it's right at your desk. I know, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. I just had so many. Mine was like that progressive commercial where it's that post-it note monster and it was just like, I'm being swallowed by these.
Cassie Newell (29:18)
There's something about though, crumbling up my post-it notes when I'm done with them. I don't know why, but I just like that.
David Hankins (29:34)
So I progressed beyond
the Post-it Note monster and now I have literal lists of lists on my phone. And so, yeah, because I'm always moving somewhere, you know, off to work and back and traveling for work and whatever. as I think of things, put it into the appropriate sub-list of my phone list. And then, you know, I'll find something three months later like, yeah, that was a really good story idea. What was I thinking about?
Cassie Newell (29:41)
my gosh.
of your main lists and.
Angela Haas (30:03)
Right.
Cassie Newell (30:03)
Interesting. So if you
weren't writing currently in kind of satire and fantasy worlds, what other genres would you be writing in?
David Hankins (30:10)
huh.
I really like fantasy and science fiction. And so I would.
I don't know, because I don't like horror. I'm actually working on my first romance right now. I'm working on my first romance short story right now. ⁓ It is not. That one was mostly just wacky adventure. ⁓ So this one is, I actually looked up, what are the story beats for romance? And so I plotted my story on those beats.
Angela Haas (30:21)
I just want to know if you, we're romance writers, so the whole point of having you on the show is to get you to write romance.
Cassie Newell (30:33)
Ooh, is it the fish? The fish fart one. Okay.
Angela Haas (30:39)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (30:41)
You
David Hankins (30:49)
and then, know, the, you know, intrigue and adventure that, you know, I need for the world that I'm building it into. And so I've got it all plotted. I haven't written it yet. So we'll see.
Angela Haas (31:01)
what are your tips for listeners saying, well, I have this story and I have this thing and how do you even begin when you're pitching like a short story to a magazine, right, or some sort of journal or anthology or what are some tips that you've learned along the way for getting
David Hankins (31:15)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (31:20)
into those because I'm sure there's a lot of competition. don't know. I say that and I have no idea because I've never done it.
David Hankins (31:26)
⁓ So for short stories, you're
not actually pitching an idea. You're sending the completed story out to see if they'll buy it or not. my recommendation is write the story that is in your brain that you want to get written ⁓ and then find the market that fits that story. So like I write lighthearted.
Angela Haas (31:42)
.
David Hankins (31:51)
fantasy and science fiction. ⁓ There's a lot of horror markets out there. My stuff does not fit. So know your market as you're sending it out. I've gotten published several times in Dreamforge magazine. They publish lots of hopeful stories, science fiction, fantasy. And so everything has an uplift at the end of their stories, and that's more my style. So my stories fit with them very well. So my recommendation is to find
Cassie Newell (31:58)
Right.
David Hankins (32:18)
what fits well with ⁓ matching that market to what you write. Now on the other hand, you can write a story to market. That's one of the things that we do in the Wolfpack writers is Moon finds these markets that have specific calls and we write a story for it. for example, Murder Fish is the third anthology in the series of the Unhelpful Encyclopedia The first one was Murder Birds.
Stories with birds with murderous intent. And so that was it. We needed raptor-type birds, is what the editor said, and it has to be an attempted murder. It can succeed or not, that's up to you and your story, but that's it. Here's your word limits, go. And so using that as a prompt, I wrote a story for it and got into it. And my story was about a flamingo and a red-tailed hawk that staged a breakout of the Chicago Zoo.
Angela Haas (32:51)
⁓ boy. Wow.
Which I would be rooting for. Yeah, I would think too, like the scariest one would be like if like a little chickadee or some finch was the murder bird or something. Like that would be terrifying.
Cassie Newell (33:22)
Yeah.
David Hankins (33:28)
Yeah. Well, that was the editor's problem. He actually, he'd received too many Songbird submissions and not enough Raptors.
Cause everyone was like, somebody else is going to write a hawk or an eagle. And so he, came to the Wolfpack and said, I need more Raptors. And by the way, I need them within three days. And so I went from story idea to submitted to the publisher within three days. And I absolutely love that story.
Angela Haas (33:41)
Right.
Cassie Newell (33:52)
Yeah
Angela Haas (33:52)
Mm.
Cassie Newell (33:59)
Wow, that's great.
Angela Haas (34:01)
That gives me some inspiration. I wonder what animal is next. Like rodents. Ooh, that would be creepy. No, I don't want to.
David Hankins (34:06)
What? ⁓ yeah, so the the murder fish is his current one right now. The last one was
murder bugs. ⁓ yeah, I think the next one. He hasn't decided on it yet, so he might be doing something like cats or dogs. I don't know. ⁓ so we're, waiting to see where, where he goes with it next.
Angela Haas (34:14)
Ew.
Cassie Newell (34:28)
Yeah,
that's great.
Angela Haas (34:30)
when I was first starting out, you got a subscription to Writers Digest and Publishers Weekly and
You know, it really just trad publishing and that's the only way to do it. Now they're self-publishing, but there are so many opportunities I think that we don't think of in these short story venues. That's such a great way to get started and to see what could break through before you take it to a full length novel.
David Hankins (34:46)
Mm-hmm.
It is.
And
it's a great way to learn the craft because you can, with a novel, say 60 to 100,000 words in order to get your full story arc and practice your story. That's a big commitment. 5,000 to 10,000 words to practice, hey, I need to practice some dialogue. I need to practice that kick-ass ending. Well, if you do a bunch of short stories, you can practice it multiple times.
Cassie Newell (35:00)
Yeah.
David Hankins (35:25)
as opposed to a novel, it takes a lot longer to get the same practice. So you can get more iterations. And I think it really helps hone those skills.
Cassie Newell (35:26)
Right.
love that. I write short romance
romances, and I've been having a blast with them because I've kind of serialized them. You can read them independently, but I have them in the same small town and my world just keeps getting bigger and bigger and I'm just having so much fun. Now, if I could just organize a family tree of everybody, that would help me out a great deal.
Angela Haas (35:56)
Yes. So. ⁓
Cassie Newell (35:57)
Because right now it's just all kind of in my head. ⁓ yeah, I can tell I'm going to get out of hand pretty soon. And I need some connections. Yes.
David Hankins (36:05)
⁓ Yeah, what you need is a story Bible, ⁓ know that thing that you put everything together I haven't done that either and it's starting to actually come back to bite me as I'm writing book three of the series going Okay, what did that person do in book one? I don't really remember. What was their name? So, you know, what chapter
Cassie Newell (36:14)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
David Hankins (36:25)
was that in as I'm looking?
Cassie Newell (36:28)
I
totally used AI for this recently, I threw in in a closed loop AI, I threw in my entire series, and I asked it to make the connections for me to see if it would help me build my family tree, but I really need something visual. It was very helpful, but it's still very bullet pointed. And you know, you have to look and search. And I just kind of
David Hankins (36:45)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (36:54)
Want the tree. I want an ancestry.com for writers.
Angela Haas (36:54)
Why
David Hankins (36:57)
Right?
Angela Haas (36:59)
don't we create this right now? ⁓ my god, don't speak that. I'm gonna edit that out so that no one takes our idea. ⁓
Cassie Newell (37:05)
I need that app and I need to be able to
put my pictures in it and just have the tree like that's what I want.
Anyway.
Angela Haas (37:13)
I think that's a struggle, especially if you're writing a series, because I had to do the same thing. But I had an editor that helped start me on the path of a story Bible that was part of her service, was she just took, she did such a great job. She actually used to write for the Doctor Who series. Yeah. And so she took, like she knew how to organize the world's
David Hankins (37:31)
⁓ very nice.
Cassie Newell (37:32)
wow.
Angela Haas (37:41)
part of the Bible, the people, the powers, and she started me on that path and that was really helpful. But I will say, do that from the beginning. So you're not like, you know.
Cassie Newell (37:51)
Yeah, yeah,
you're like me going and I'm contemporary romance. mean, it's all common date, but it's all fictional, of course. So I'm just like, yeah, I may have to pay someone to do it for me, but I just need it easily to be searchable. That's my problem. And I would love to have a visual. So yeah.
Angela Haas (38:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
David Hankins (38:03)
Well, I'm gonna do it.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (38:14)
Yeah,
yeah. One last question I created the podcast, well, we created the podcast for authors in their awkward sophomore year who aren't starting at zero, but are kind of in this overwhelmed state where I've published one book, now I've got to think about marketing, writing.
David Hankins (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (38:35)
⁓ You know a lot of authors quit after one book It is so what would you tell someone like if you could go back in time and tell your your past self something you learned or listeners who are in this zone where they're in that Sophomore lane, what would you tell them to help keep them inspired?
David Hankins (38:36)
Right.
Cassie Newell (38:40)
One or two.
David Hankins (38:40)
It's a lot of work!
Cassie Newell (38:43)
Yeah.
David Hankins (39:00)
I would tell
them to find the space to rest. So if you have to schedule it, schedule in rest, schedule in time when you are not writing, when you are not doing day job, you can focus on family or vacation or whatever, because the brain needs to rest in order to keep coming up with these great ideas.
Angela Haas (39:08)
Okay.
David Hankins (39:29)
keep pushing it without a break, you'll hit burnout. And so, my family, even before I started writing, we realized that we were hitting burnout because we were doing a whole bunch of home improvement projects. So would be finish
Cassie Newell (39:33)
Yeah.
David Hankins (39:46)
work, come home, start doing home improvement all through the weekend, Saturday, Sunday, just work, work, work, work, work, work, work, we were completely burned out within six months. And...
which I don't recommend buying houses that were built in the 1950s or before, because they need a lot of work. So anyway, we've moved on from that house. We're somewhere different now. And we realized that we had to have that break. So we said one day of the weekend, Sunday, where it is our family day. We're not going to work. We're not going to do anything. And I'd say within 90 percent, we managed to keep that. So even with my writing, ⁓ even if I'm up against a deadline,
Sunday is sacred to use the term. I'm not gonna write. We're gonna sit down, we're gonna play games, we're gonna watch Doctor Who, we're gonna do whatever, just kinda have fun, relax, go work in the garden, take a walk, whatever it is that helps your brain chill, and then on Monday, ready to go at it again. And so in that sophomore year, when you have all the things that are coming in on you,
Cassie Newell (40:32)
you
David Hankins (40:53)
Schedule your time to take a break and then you won't hit burnout as fast.
Angela Haas (40:56)
Yeah.
That made my eye twitch for a second because I will part of you feels like you've got to keep producing my gosh, I feel like I'm because I have such compare itis I'm always like well this person just published their tenth book. I gotta keep going I've got it immediately I finished one project. I guess start the other but that is something I think we all need to hear because you have to recharge you're not gonna like
David Hankins (40:59)
You
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (41:23)
blow all these deadlines by taking a day each week for yourself. That's kind of normal work time, you know. So yeah.
David Hankins (41:26)
Right. Right. And, you know,
give yourself a break because if, you know, ⁓ conventions, conventions go over weekends, I'm going to be doing writing stuff on a Sunday when I'm at a convention, but I'm going to try to schedule the next weekend. I don't have anything going on. So ⁓ it's not a hundred percent. You know, nothing is. If you try to keep to a hundred percent on anything, you'll go crazy. ⁓
Cassie Newell (41:45)
Right.
Angela Haas (41:54)
Yeah, yeah, balance everyone.
David Hankins (41:57)
balance.
Get the balance.
Angela Haas (42:00)
Balance and fish farts. That's the key. That's the takeaway. ⁓ Where can we find you? Where can people find you, David?
David Hankins (42:02)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (42:05)
I love it.
David Hankins (42:10)
⁓ You can find
me, my website is davidhankins.com and I'm on most of the social media platforms. I'm most active on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. ⁓ Links are all at my website ⁓ and you can just search David Henkins author and you'll find me. And I post a lot of memes and silly stuff and know, ducky things.
Angela Haas (42:39)
yeah, what's with the rubber duckies? That was my last question. There's a lot of rubber duckies in his feeds. So I'm like, well, you gotta.
David Hankins (42:40)
⁓ the ducks! ⁓ hold on.
Yes.
Cassie Newell (42:45)
Do you drive a Jeep?
David Hankins (42:47)
So, yeah,
these little teeny tiny resin ducks, it started out as a prank by my wife on April Fool's Day. So she bought, you can buy a bag of them for 10 bucks off of Amazon. And so she did. And on April Fool's Day, she put them around the house for my daughter to find. And it worked out great. She's like, ⁓ a duckie. And she goes and grabs the duckie. And as soon as she turns around, my wife, as if it were a spawn point in a video game.
puts another duck right in the same spot. My daughter is cooing about her duck. She turns around, I just took that duck. And she goes, now she's got two ducks. And she's walking around and my wife puts another one right in the same spot. And so this continued throughout the morning. For a little bit, she started getting really angry. She's like, where are they coming from? I don't know. But we had a lot of fun. That day I had to fly to Germany for my job and I'm at the airport.
Angela Haas (43:13)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (43:24)
I love it.
Angela Haas (43:30)
⁓ yeah.
David Hankins (43:40)
standing in line and I stick my hands in my jacket pockets and I go, ⁓ no. And I pull out the little ducks. And so I actually stepped out of line to go open up all of my bags and sure enough, they put a little duck in every single pocket of my carry-on and my check bag. So I had 20 ducks that traveled with me to Germany and I was like, okay, they're getting pictures all over Germany and they became part of my social media and yeah.
Angela Haas (43:52)
You
Cassie Newell (43:57)
What?
⁓ fun.
David Hankins (44:07)
Ever since, it's been the travelogue of the lost bards duckies.
Cassie Newell (44:11)
I love it. That is great.
Angela Haas (44:11)
That's amazing. That's everything.
So fun. Well, there's one last thing to do.
David Hankins (44:18)
yes.
Cassie Newell (44:18)
Table
topics.
Angela Haas (44:20)
Yep, all right. What's an experience you've had that not many people know about? Hmm, secrets.
David Hankins (44:29)
in high school, I did a lot of martial arts. so I, and actually I did a little bit, I lived in Colorado Springs for a while. And while I was there, I went to the Kempo School there in Colorado Springs. And while I did the martial arts, I actually won quite a few trophies at tournaments.
Angela Haas (44:34)
Ooh.
David Hankins (44:51)
to include
this down.
Angela Haas (44:57)
my god! Wow, that's amazing. We went duckies to samurais.
Cassie Newell (44:57)
my gosh.
For those that aren't seeing, it's samurai swords that we just saw.
David Hankins (45:05)
So one of the swords,
the big one, the first place one, I won for doing a form, so a kata, where you do the fake fight just all by yourself, in handcuffs.
Cassie Newell (45:20)
wow.
Angela Haas (45:20)
⁓
David Hankins (45:22)
Yep. And
Angela Haas (45:22)
wow.
David Hankins (45:23)
so it was a freestyle form thing. I realized, I was like, you know, a lot of this stuff that we practice, our hands are together as we're doing the thing. So was like, how much can I do in handcuffs? And I figured out I can do quite a bit in handcuffs. And so I did my form and got first place.
Cassie Newell (45:43)
Wow, that's an incredible story.
Angela Haas (45:43)
Wow, that's amazing.
You have layers like an onion. Cassie.
Cassie Newell (45:48)
Yes, we
David Hankins (45:48)
like an onion.
Cassie Newell (45:49)
So, experience that not many people know about me is when I was younger, my mom put me in all the different types of dance classes. And I really loved ballet and point, even though it hurt. But I was really talented at tap dancing. And my mom loved me tap dancing. And I just was kind of like, I want to take jazz and I want to do like...
David Hankins (46:08)
Ooooo
Angela Haas (46:13)
That's
Cassie Newell (46:16)
It just felt like an old person's like thing to do tap dancing. But now that I'm older, I would love to do it again. You know, I just I used to watch So You Think You Can Dance and all these different
Angela Haas (46:28)
Oh yeah.
David Hankins (46:29)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (46:30)
dance shows with my youngest daughter. We that's one of our favorite pastimes. And I always fell in love with the tap dancers because I know how hard it is. And I was just like, yeah, I really should have.
Done more with that, but I won a bunch of awards in tap dancing too.
David Hankins (46:47)
very nice.
So do you ever embarrass your kids by tap dancing in public?
Angela Haas (46:52)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (46:53)
No, not really, because I'm out of shape.
Angela Haas (46:53)
Okay.
David Hankins (46:57)
Thank
Cassie Newell (46:57)
⁓ no, no, but, yeah, it's just one of those things. I did baton. I twirled. My mom was a teacher at one time. She, she had a baton and yeah, just all those things. It was a recent memories because we downsized our house and moved into a new location and a smaller house and just gave away all my batons and tap dance shoes, all the things. Yeah.
David Hankins (47:17)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (47:21)
Wow. You could have been like a backup dancer. I don't know. ⁓ Well, a few things, but...
Cassie Newell (47:22)
What about you, Angela?
You
Angela Haas (47:31)
I guess the one thing that comes to mind is, so a few years ago, well actually like 10 years ago now, there was a big group of us, like 40 people went down to Cayman Islands for one of our best friends. They were renewing their vows and we all hauled all of our kids and it was like kind of crazy. I mean, I've never traveled with that big of a group, but it was just all to celebrate our friends and they'd been married for like 20 years.
But it was beautiful, part of the trip was going to Stingray City, where you get in with the stingrays and then they kiss you. So I'll have to find my picture and pop that up. No, they come up and they come to your face like this and like kiss you like this. And I'm like, first of all, do the stingrays like really like doing this? They think you're food. They're just looking for food. So they get fed and stuff, but.
Cassie Newell (48:04)
Mm-hmm.
That little
Angela Haas (48:25)
It was funny because my husband was like, I am not getting the water. And it is a little surreal because they're just all like swimming around you and then they like swim up your back. ⁓ But I like that kind of stuff. So that was an experience I don't think a lot of people know that I've done. I kissed a stingray. So yeah, all.
Cassie Newell (48:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Hankins (48:45)
Yeah. And now you write romance.
Cassie Newell (48:45)
There you go.
Angela Haas (48:49)
I mean, I think that's
probably what set it off and I didn't even know. Maybe I dedicate, I should thank the Stingray in my next book. Like, thank you, Mr. Stingray. Anyway, this was such a fun discussion. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us and telling about your stories. So listeners are just going to love this. And thank you everyone for joining us today. Don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you listen to the podcast. It really helps us with
Cassie Newell (49:03)
Thank you.
Angela Haas (49:17)
visibility. Next week we're talking with Dan Willcocks best-selling dark fiction author and he writes horror. it's scary! Until then, keep writing, keep doing. We'll see ya!
Cassie Newell (49:29)
Bye.
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