Strong Female Characters: What Ride or Die Gets Right

Angela Haas (00:35)
Welcome to episode 81. I'm Angela Haas and I'm here with my co-host Cassie Newell. And this month we're just doing what we're calling quick bites.

This month can be busy for some of us, and for many people, as summer winds down, activities ramp up a little bit. So we just want to dive into some craft issues author face, but we are gonna explore these in like 20 minutes or less just to get you some quick tips. Today I actually want to discuss ways to write female characters, but

As it relates to the Amazon Prime show Ride or Die, because there are some phenomenal examples of strong, compelling female characters in that show. But pausing, viewers and listeners, if you have not seen the entire series starring Hannah Waddingham and Octavia Spencer, please turn back now and come back when you have.

Okay, so but from watching the show, we can take away how to write female characters, female friendships, and amazing female villains. So to start, let me just talk to you for a second, Cassie. We're gonna be really quick with this, but what did you love about the show? And actually, what about the trailer and the little snippets you saw made you immediately like hooked you, made you want?

to tune in. What was it that made you want to watch it?

Cassie Newell (02:08)
Yeah, because I didn't know much about it, to be quite honest. until, you know, we just said, Hey, let's watch it. Me and my husband, bored, you know, wanted a little adventure. When I first saw the trailer, I was like, this is gonna be like a Thelma and Louise kind of thing. And then I was like, no, it's not. It's a s she's a spy. This is gonna be fun.

Angela Haas (02:29)
Ha ha

Cassie Newell (02:29)
Like, you know, I just loved, that she was a kick ass person. The other thing to it is Hannah Waddingham.

plays Rebecca and Ted Lasso, which is one of my all-time favorite TV shows.

Angela Haas (02:39)
Mm.

Cassie Newell (02:40)
So I was like, of course I'm gonna watch it. So honestly, it was kind of who was in it, the actresses that were in it, that I was like, automatic bye, kind of like certain authors, you know, or whatever, just automatic. Let's just check out episode one, which ended up binging it in like two days. And then I was calling you going, you have to watch this. It's

Angela Haas (02:57)
Mm. Yeah, yes.

Cassie Newell (03:01)
so amazing. So yeah.

That was like my first impression, like, this is gonna be just a fun female dynamic kick butt adventure. And my husband kinda always loves those kind of spy type things. So

Angela Haas (03:14)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (03:15)
yeah, I mean, that's what sold it. You? Outside of me screaming in your ear.

Angela Haas (03:19)
same. I

I well I love action adventure anyway and we're

Cassie Newell (03:25)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (03:25)
always looking for something fun and it seemed lighter than other shows that I've loved, like The Night Agent or Reacher, you know, it seemed like there was some zaniness which I was like, let's just escape. I think I'm always looking for escape things and just

Cassie Newell (03:44)
Right.

Angela Haas (03:44)
fun. So that's

What inspired me. I I think Hannah for me also is, I think she's a goddess. I think Octavia Spencer, I have followed her career as well, and I love her personally also.

Cassie Newell (03:55)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (03:56)
So I think the two together, I they are must-watches for me, but I really was curious about their chemistry together and how they were gonna play that out. But the first real tip I want to get into for writers

I think we learn a lot about how to write character from what we're reading, but you can learn a lot about character from what you're watching. And for me, Judith Hannah's character in this show is is that's it. I was watching her and I was saying, This is it. This is how you write a strong female character. And for me.

What I learned from it and what I felt validated from was that she wasn't impervious. She was really strong and they show that in the opening scenes, that she doesn't follow the rules, she makes good judgments, she's just sort of like I do what I want, but it never transitioned into I hate men, I don't need anyone, I I'm

Perfect and I'm a badass and no one knows why. I don't like those kinds of strong female characters where we just don't see them having moments of vulnerability at all. And Judith has it all. She is scared sometimes. You can see that when she's faced with something where she's outnumbered,

Cassie Newell (05:23)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (05:24)
she's a little nervous, but she's working it out how to get out of the situation. She

Sometimes has a moment where she cries, where she's stressed, where she doesn't know what to do, balanced with moments where she's absolutely kicking butt and taking names. And I think that balance resonates so much more with me because I think as women, I don't want to feel like I have to be impervious to be seen as strong. I don't want to feel like I have to make all the decisions because I don't need anyone.

That's not true. Sometimes I want someone

Cassie Newell (05:59)
Right.

Angela Haas (06:00)
else to decide for once. And it I relate I not that I'm an assassin, but I I'm more inspired by seeing a strong female not be a total flaming bitch, not

Cassie Newell (06:16)
Right.

Angela Haas (06:16)
saying, I'm strong because I don't need anyone. I am strong because I've overcome something. And I think that's

What makes her such a compelling character? What do you think about Judith? What what can people take away from Judith? Yeah.

Cassie Newell (06:29)
I loved her all for this, yeah.

I loved her for all the same reasons. But I think for me, I think I think her ultimate way of moving through the world was really independent for herself. But when you threw in her friend, which was her heart, then it changed. And I loved that. Like the stakes were higher.

They're more important to her when her friend fights back, when they fight, it it it stabbed her heart, you know, versus somebody else arguing with her. She could give a flying flip, you know? And you could see how how they came together throughout the series and what that meant to her. Did she always make the best decisions? No, she did not. Did she always? I mean, and I think that's part of that piece where it's like people are.

are fallible, right? We want to see that. We want to experience we may not be like, well, that was a shit decision. Why would you do that? Even but then, but because we're fallible, you know? and we can be selfish and all the things. But I think what I loved about Judith and Debbie's relationship, just to pivot for a second, was they would fight, they would resolve, and they still respected and loved each other. It always

It

was repairable. And it's interesting because females, true female friendships are so different than male friendships. And I love that representation. And why I say they're so different is men will either fight it out, address it either physically or verbally, and move on without consequence. Females aren't like that.

Angela Haas (08:13)
Right.

Cassie Newell (08:13)
And

if there's no consequence to the men, usually the friendship's broken, they're not talking to each other. It's very black and white. Females, on the other hand, in my experience, or raising females, being around females, is when we argue or disagree, there's tension, there's emotion behind it. It's not always resolved quickly. There

Angela Haas (08:35)
Right.

Cassie Newell (08:36)
and in in those cases, we may still respect each other.

But the thing is, is that, and I thought what was represented so well is that there's still heart behind all the decisions and fights we make and have. And there's always a connective tissue, either that's super irreparable or repairable, and you understand why. And you respect it and love it because of the history you have or the investment you have within that person and all the things.

And I just thought it was so beautifully done. And I think that's why I love Judith so much because what you would see on the outside, very 007, you know, as you know in the show. And and again, preview of if you haven't seen this, you may not want to hear this, but

The fact that Debbie goes into her actual living space and it's a very clean, very abrupt, very un-Judith-like the person Debbie knows. But then she finds the hidden room where like the apothecary antique is there. The her pictures from her kids when they were little were there for Aunt Judith and like all the things. And you're just like, you thought their friendship was irreparable, but then Debbie sees that and she's like, no, she is the

person I know, not this cold person.

Angela Haas (09:56)
Right. Yes.

Cassie Newell (09:58)
She's living a double life, you know, and

Angela Haas (10:00)
Right.

Cassie Newell (10:01)
Debbie gets to s understand that a little bit better when everything's revealed. And I, I just love that. They're both not perfect, but they're both great

Angela Haas (10:08)
Yeah. No, they're not.

Cassie Newell (10:12)
together. And I, I just, yeah, I'm smitten by

Angela Haas (10:15)
Right.

Cassie Newell (10:16)
their friendship. Cause I think I was like, I want to write this kind of friendship.

You know, it's perfect.

Angela Haas (10:20)
absolutely. And Debbie was

the perfect compliment because she was so used to managing her husband's career that you can see her being calm under pressure and

Cassie Newell (10:32)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (10:33)
using her strategy to solve problems. Where

Cassie Newell (10:37)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (10:38)
Judith solves problems sometimes with like guns and fists and shooting

Cassie Newell (10:42)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (10:43)
her way out of something.

What I loved about Debbie's character and the way Octavia Spencer played her was that cool, calm, collected. Not that she wasn't rattled, obviously, when they're being chased by other assassins. And

Cassie Newell (10:58)
Uh-huh.

Angela Haas (10:58)
you still see Debbie feeling like how we would all feel if the world just suddenly blew up, the world that we know is not what's reality. You see her having that fear. I almost lost it that moment where.

Judith is getting the motorcycle and Debbie's like, where do I go? What do I do? And then Judith is like, I got you. And they hug and I was like, please. This is like, you know, but

Cassie Newell (11:21)
Mm-hmm. I know. Yeah.

Angela Haas (11:24)
we still see how they complement each other in that problem-solving way. So that's the takeaway here. Writing female characters doesn't mean that they're bitchy or they don't need people.

Or they're infallible, perfect, or jealous of each other, or

Cassie Newell (11:42)
Or they're jealous of each other. Yeah.

Angela Haas (11:45)
just so strong, and we just don't know why. They're just strong, and that's all you need to know. They can have that secret room inside. They can still be a badass female assassin and still love flowers.

Cassie Newell (11:58)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (11:59)
Like we don't we have to sort of rewrite this idea of what it means to be a strong female. But that's why I loved this show. So

But let's talk about the villain. I had some problems with the villain.

Cassie Newell (12:14)
Ha ha ha.

Angela Haas (12:17)
I loved there's things I loved about her and I loved that the the villain was also female because it showed sort of the decay of the female friendship. What did you think about that villain?

Cassie Newell (12:31)
Yeah,

I actually liked her as a villain. I didn't like her as a person because well, down with the badness, you know, I wanted Judith to

Angela Haas (12:38)
Right. Right.

Cassie Newell (12:40)
be successful. and you knew you knew only one of them was gonna be successful in this, right? And that's

Angela Haas (12:47)
Hmm.

Cassie Newell (12:48)
but the but what I loved, I love the concept that the villain is the hero of their own story.

Angela Haas (12:56)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (12:56)
And boy was Anna. Because

She thought she had the type of friendship that Judith and Debbie had. It was clear to her there was some jealousy there. The fact that Judith basically, you realize, was taking her out as a result of Anna making a comment to get rid of her best friend, right? Like she had to go. Yeah. And that's where the emotion

Angela Haas (13:18)
Yeah, to get rid of Debbie. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (13:21)
decision came in. She's like, You're not touching her. So you've got to go. Like that's that's where

Angela Haas (13:26)
Right.

Cassie Newell (13:27)
Judith had

Head was. And I thought what made her compelling was that it wasn't completely jealousy. I mean, there's intelligence, she's capable, emotionally layered, all those things, right? It's towards a darker purpose. But she was taking Debbie now and showing her the darkness of Judith. And that was

Angela Haas (13:48)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (13:49)
diabolical to me. She could have just

Killed Debbie and made Judith watch.

Angela Haas (13:54)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (13:55)
That's the typical male thing you would do, right? Make

Angela Haas (13:58)
Right, right.

Cassie Newell (13:59)
the person suffer when you kill their significant other or whatever relationship that is. No, this was diabolical. This was, let me show you who you think you know. And this is who I know. And this is who she really is. And just tear that down. And it worked.

She tore Debbie out. She was raw. She was mad. She was upset. and then let that loose and then let Judith suffer. I just thought, I mean, it was, it wasn't just ruthlessness. There was so much emotional depth. And I think you have to have that with good female villains, otherwise, they fall flat because they're really not representing females at that point. So to me, I thought it was pretty epic.

On how the story

Angela Haas (14:47)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (14:48)
plot was around that character. Of course, I don't love the villain. She's not a Loki for me. Like, love him

Angela Haas (14:54)
Right.

Cassie Newell (14:55)
but hate him at the same time. But like it was diabolical. And I just thought you have to have somebody that's gonna be that crazy in order to match Judith and Octavia. And I thought she did fabulous. Yeah.

Angela Haas (15:08)
She

yes, she it's an actress I've not heard of. Sylvia Hoeks

Cassie Newell (15:12)
Yeah, me either. I'm not that familiar.

Angela Haas (15:14)
or yeah. but she did really well. So I think she was played brilliantly. The one criticism I have, and I think you can turn this in a tip for your writing, when you're writing villains, people your villain can't win all the time.

the villain won way too much and way too long. It was too easy for her to just win-win-win, get, get, get. I think for her to be more compelling was to also show the vulnerability more. We got the backstory, but

Cassie Newell (15:46)
Uh-huh.

Angela Haas (15:46)
I wanted to see you need to have your villain face some losses too.

And what I didn't like about Ride or Die was we didn't see the unraveling of like some of around some of those losses. We didn't see her lose it, you know, when David was rescued by Sam and Queenie, right? Yes. I we should have seen the villain go back and be like, no, we know.

Cassie Newell (16:15)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (16:15)
And then get even more like, okay, that's it, you know, and even more like I'm I'm raising my game So I think more compelling villains have an arc too. They have wins and they have to have a couple losses where you see them unravel and even like slip more into madness and then

Then almost that creates a little more tension, like, no, she saw that David's gone, she's losing it. What's gonna happen now? You don't really

Cassie Newell (16:45)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (16:45)
see that. She just won won won And then I feel like her death because I was hating her so much. I thought it should have been a lot slower. I did too, but I was just like, it was.

Cassie Newell (16:56)
See, I loved how it went 'cause that was such a call to Thomma and Louise. And I was just like,

my God, they can't jump this. What are they doing? you know, and then yeah.

Angela Haas (17:07)
I know. There was that

tension there for me. But I feel like I wish I would have seen a little bit more loss for the villain. And I didn't really like that final setup that she had Judith in that chamber that felt a little James Bonding villain to me, but maybe that was their purpose. But it just was, I think.

Cassie Newell (17:25)
Yeah. Well, I think she just wanted Judith

to suffer as much as possible. And I was like, Well, that's one way of doing it.

Angela Haas (17:30)
Right. Yeah.

That's totally one way of doing it. But like the you know, the machines and like to me sometimes that's like mm would that person I think a female assassin would have like done a th tiny little cuts on her body and let her bleed out. Now obviously for the purpose of storytelling, we can't do that. But the way they set her up with well, if she did,

Cassie Newell (17:51)
Well, and have Judith recover.

Angela Haas (17:56)
if she was found in time, she's also kind of.

Poison, but I don't know. It just felt a little James Bondy villain to me, where they always hook you up to some machine and leave you alone. You know, like to me, that. But overall, I just I really loved also I looked, and this was written by women. You know, a lot of times we have not that men can't write compelling female characters. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying.

Sometimes I see how females are written, and I think it's a man thinking, well, this is what women think strong women are. And I think some women are guilty of that too. I'm not here to create a gender debate, but yeah. So anyway, I just love that it was really an all-star female, cast behind the scenes as well,

Cassie Newell (18:46)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (18:47)
Yeah, the only other thing that I wished was not as drawn out was to me, if you have a premise, my best friend's an assassin, that's kind of a zany premise, you know. I thought it was gonna be more light. I wish there were some moments where they were fighting a lot. I understand why the fight was happening, but I felt like, gosh, I wanted to see them more in their friendship instead of

I feel like for eight episodes they were just constantly torn apart. And I think that's just the nature of how the plot had to be for certain things to happen. But I just wanted I loved the book club scenes, you know. I thought those were funny. And I loved

Cassie Newell (19:31)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (19:32)
how Debbie without Judith was like, I don't like book club, you know. so

Cassie Newell (19:37)
Yeah. I hate it.

I didn't read the book. She was

Angela Haas (19:41)
Yeah, I hate it.

Cassie Newell (19:42)
stealing Judith's book every time.

Angela Haas (19:44)
Yeah, but for me overall, I think that's this whole show is a great lesson on how to write compelling female characters and a compelling female friendship. It just worked so well. And I think it it also wasn't sort of an anti-male thing, I

Cassie Newell (20:04)
No. Yeah.

Angela Haas (20:05)
think sometimes for us women to show that we can have strong females.

And strong female friendships that we somehow have to be anti male. And this wasn't like that at all. So yeah. So those are my overalls about it. I don't know if you have any more things that you just loved about, you know, because the males were good too.

Cassie Newell (20:24)
liked that

yeah definitely I like that they owned their mistakes you

Angela Haas (20:32)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (20:33)
know they didn't I mean they apologized for them of course but they own them too and

Angela Haas (20:39)
Mm.

Cassie Newell (20:39)
I love that because a lot of times I think characters in general we don't write that we just show the apology of it and maybe the regret but not so

Angela Haas (20:50)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (20:50)
much owning it

So I I

Angela Haas (20:52)
Right.

Cassie Newell (20:52)
kind of loved that. the only thing I didn't love was there there is a a side character that they ended up killing off that kind of shocked me. And I was a little bummed

Angela Haas (21:04)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (21:06)
by it for one of the main characters, Judith specifically. And that kind of bummed me out, but then I was like, yeah.

Kill your darlings. It made it more impactful. All of the things, you know, it was at

Angela Haas (21:18)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (21:19)
that big end moment anyway. So,

Angela Haas (21:22)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (21:23)
but overall, I just was like, well done you, well done you, and win a season two. Like that is kind of

Angela Haas (21:29)
Yeah, exactly.

Cassie Newell (21:30)
and how would that even work? You know, but even if this was just it, I thought it was fabulous. The only other thing I thought was Spa Octavia Spencer.

Playing an American living in the UK with absolutely no accent or mannerisms toward the UK was a little odd.

Angela Haas (21:51)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (21:51)
especially for raising two adult children. I mean, from babies to adulthood and having

Angela Haas (21:57)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (21:59)
no in ability to actually drive

Angela Haas (22:01)
Right.

Cassie Newell (22:02)
correctly and all the things. I mean, it made for quirky

Angela Haas (22:04)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (22:04)
personality, but I was like, it's a little odd.

that was probably the only thing that stood out to me. But then again, American, so you could kind of see that happening too. yeah.

Angela Haas (22:13)
Yeah,

I Yeah, I do. I saw that too. I I would think that if you've lived there for half your life, you you get used to it. And I think you excuse me. You would even start to pick up some of the dialect and accent a little bit, you know. Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (22:32)
Yeah, or at least some of the slang. And

I don't know. I just that kind of irked me a little bit, but I was like, that's so minor compared to everything else. And

Angela Haas (22:40)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (22:40)
that kind of just tags back to I know sometimes we get in our editing of if my god, I missed this or a typo. Again, if

Angela Haas (22:49)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (22:50)
the story's great, I'll forgive you. You know, I mean, that's kind of

Angela Haas (22:51)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Cassie Newell (22:55)
where I was. I was like, I don't care.

It's just her quirky

Angela Haas (22:58)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (22:59)
thing, you know, whatever. so yeah, overall it was lovely. I obviously was like, my God, everybody watch it. Calling everybody, telling them about it. It was great.

Angela Haas (23:08)
Yeah, well, it it was inspiring

and I think we both took notes on future females

Cassie Newell (23:13)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (23:14)
we want to write. So yeah, so anyway, that's our quick tip. Those are just little bites. You can listen on your commute on the way back from the airport, whatever. But anyway, thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to leave us a review and rating wherever you listen to the podcast. It really helps us with visibility.

And if you're interested in joining us in our romance corner, The Author Next Door After Dark you can now find those special episodes right here in our regular podcast feed on the last Wednesday of every month. Until next time, keep writing, keep doing. We'll see ya.