Episode 09: Finding Your Writing Community with K.S. Barton

Angela Haas (00:02.874)
Hello and welcome to episode nine of the author next door. I'm Angela Haas and I'm here with my co-host Cassie Newell. And this month we've been talking about networking. This episode we have a very special guest, KS Barton. And we are going to focus our attention from talking about networking face to face to building your community

and finding your people online. KS Barton writes historical fiction and fantasy stories of love and adventure set in the Viking age. The author of several novels, she explores themes of family, honor, strength, all within the backdrop of Norse society. When doing research on Norse mythology, I can't say that word, hello.

When doing research on Norse mythology for a teaching project she discovered the Norse stagas and Immediately knew she wanted to write fiction about Vikings. KS also co-hosts a podcast Shield Maidens women of the Norse world She has an MA in humanities with a focus on literature history and has always loved to learn about history through stories Welcome Kim

K.S. Barton (01:26.706)
thank you, Angela. Hi, Cassie.

Angela Haas (01:28.648)
So glad have you. I'm sorry I couldn't say that word, Norse. Isn't that amazing how some words like, couldn't, hello. I kept wanting to say North, but it kept coming out weird. So anyway, so I wanted to bring you on Kim because I, it's safe to assume you're a little introverted. Is that correct? Just from the times that I've met you, I don't want to be like, she's an introvert.

K.S. Barton (01:34.061)
You

Cassie Newell (01:36.004)
You

Angela Haas (01:58.156)
Right.

K.S. Barton (01:58.241)
No, when I've done the Myers-Briggs, I'm like 90 % on the introvert scale.

Angela Haas (02:04.602)
Right. Cassie is more ambiverted. I'm more extroverted. So we were representing all sides of that coin. yes, you know, it's interesting though. You have such a community of support online. I know that you're in a critique group that has been in a few critique groups here and there.

Cassie Newell (02:11.874)
represent well.

Angela Haas (02:27.956)
And that's another question I want to ask you, how you actually leave a critique group that's not serving you because we were both in one that didn't serve us. And we've both been in one separately that wasn't working out for us and I've shared that experience. But how did you start? Think of when you started writing, you didn't probably know many people and now you have

community that is so supportive. Can you walk us through that process? What that was like?

K.S. Barton (03:00.843)
Yeah, well, when I first started writing, like a lot of us, I had no idea what I was doing. So I thought just because I'd been writing stories and reading stories since I was a little kid that I could just write a novel, right? Like how hard can it be? I'll just write a novel. Yeah, but I never finished anything. I would dabble in, I'd write a story here, I'd have some random idea here. had ideas for like...

Angela Haas (03:12.27)
Right.

K.S. Barton (03:27.917)
fantasy stuff or even dabbled in women's fiction for a little while like trying to write something in there, but nothing really stuck. And so like when I, as you said in the, in the bio, when I was working on some nonfiction stuff, I came across Norse mythology and it was like, oh my gosh, I've come home, right? This is the genre I'm going to write in. This is the time period I want to write about. And

Cassie Newell (03:54.244)
I love that.

K.S. Barton (03:58.721)
But I still was just all by myself, right? I didn't have anybody. And a friend of mine who had started out writing fan fiction and was writing, had written, how many novels had she written? A couple, at least two. Maybe she was working on her third. She invited me to be in a critique group with her. And so I did that. I didn't even have my first novel. I maybe had a general idea of what I wanted to do, but I didn't have like,

Angela Haas (04:01.05)
Okay.

Angela Haas (04:18.51)
Yeah.

K.S. Barton (04:28.521)
anything written down. this was like, I was in my late 40s when this happened. So I'd been dabbling for decades and never getting anything done. And when she finally invited me to be in this group, and this one is in person. yeah, that's when I finally realized that there's a lot I needed to learn because they were all like, everybody in the group was like one step

at least one step ahead of me. And so they all taught me, this, need to work on this, this, you have a problem with this or all those kinds of things. So it really helped me understand that even though I know how to write, I didn't really know how to write a novel. And I also learned that I absolutely have to have external accountability. I can't just sit down and write without or I couldn't then, I can now, but I couldn't then without

Angela Haas (05:00.623)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Cassie Newell (05:20.063)
Mm, yeah.

K.S. Barton (05:26.537)
actually turning something in to other people. I needed other people to be counting on me to turn in a chapter or a scene or whatever.

Cassie Newell (05:35.8)
Right.

Angela Haas (05:37.27)
And how did you start meeting people online? Like I know Kathy Spader kind of, I mean, she was the one that brought me into some of your groups. And I mean, how did you find her? like, I found her on Facebook and

K.S. Barton (05:52.045)
Oh, I met Cathy through J. Thorne's group. What was the author life community? Was that what it was called?

Angela Haas (05:55.136)
Okay, so it was Jay Thorne's group. Yeah, okay. All right. And is that kind of the first group you were in?

K.S. Barton (06:02.593)
That was the first big online group I was in. Yeah, and I met her through that and we've since really connected. Yeah, but my critique groups are in person though. So I have done some online, but these were in person. Yeah, and I...

Angela Haas (06:16.171)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (06:20.238)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (06:21.847)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (06:25.038)
Do you, are you in communities that are online at all?

K.S. Barton (06:29.367)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I do belong to a group where we meet every morning from it's nine to 1030 Eastern, mean, Pacific time, like literally every day. There's no like even like holidays and stuff. There's always somebody there. And this is mostly just a writing group, like we just sit down to write. Everybody, you can have your camera on or off, can't, know, all that kind of stuff. And it's just a space.

Angela Haas (06:43.222)
Mm-hmm.

K.S. Barton (06:59.405)
It's just like this held space for everybody to write on whatever they need to write on. And it's just nice to know that there are other people just working at the same time. I think in the ADHD circle, it's called the body doubling, just knowing that there's somebody there working with you. And lately I've also been doing the London Writers' Salon. They have a paid membership, but they also have a free one where you can join these writers hours.

Angela Haas (07:16.954)
Yeah.

K.S. Barton (07:29.653)
And I've been doing one in the morning. It's 50 minutes of writing and at first everybody kind of, and there's like 250 people in that particular hour. And everybody gets in and kind of in the chat, you tell everybody, you hey, I'm from this place. And then they read an inspirational quote. And then at five minutes after the hour, everybody just starts working on whatever you're going to work on. And then at...

Angela Haas (07:38.271)
Whoa.

Cassie Newell (07:38.585)
Wow.

K.S. Barton (07:56.525)
five minutes till the hour they break and just kind of check in like, you been, have you been, you know, has you been productive? And that's actually really great too. Even just that short 50 minutes, at least for me, if I have a time limit, I can find, I can focus a lot better.

Angela Haas (08:16.65)
Yeah, I think just having people I Know when I'm like driving in a car and I see someone jogging on the side of the road I'm like, I've got to exercise today. I think that's true with writing don't you like when you see someone chime in I mean like

I'm going in the writing room and you see that notification in your group and it's like, I better get in there or I got to do some writing or something. It really motivates you. don't know if that's, you've Cassie or, you know, Kim, you can both answer. Do you find that motivating?

K.S. Barton (08:38.573)
Mm-hmm.

K.S. Barton (08:48.459)
I do, yeah, absolutely. And it's just, when I know that it helps to build that habit. So if I know that there's gonna be writers, either the London writer salon or my other more private group, if I know there's gonna be people there from this time until this time, it's just really, yeah, it is really motivating. Like, okay, if there's gonna be other people there, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna do it. And then it's like, I've been doing this for...

It's been over four years in this one group and it's like, this is the time that I write. So it's like, I hate to say it's a job because sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. But you know, it's like, and I think there's something to your creativity coming to you when you're like in the same place at the same time as much as you can be. So if I'm in the same, at my desk every day from...

Angela Haas (09:22.386)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (09:27.79)
It smells like it.

Angela Haas (09:40.588)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

K.S. Barton (09:45.343)
either 9 to 1030 or 10 to 1130 depending on the time difference, then I think my creativity is just like, okay, this is the time we work.

Cassie Newell (09:50.168)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (09:56.748)
Yeah, I think I'm a little bit in opposition. So I like being around people, but I like writing when I have the time to write. And it's usually not when these things are going on. So I go back and forth. Like I like for my significance, if I'm talking CliftonStrengths and my Relator, like I like being around people, but at the same time,

like I like the discussion pieces more than I like just doing sprints. I've learned for myself. And I like knowing when I'm pushing other people, and maybe that's the coach in me. But for myself, it, I just have a hard time because a lot of times I dictate in order to get words down. And that's just not an environment that's helpful most of the time to do that. So

Angela Haas (10:40.11)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (10:51.032)
just a little bit opposite. And also I'm kind of a weekend warrior, so it's not an everyday thing for me to write.

K.S. Barton (11:00.641)
I've set up my schedule to do that, to make it in every day. I don't work until the afternoons on the days that I work. So I have those mornings free every day, most days.

Cassie Newell (11:12.206)
That's nice.

Angela Haas (11:13.359)
Yeah, I think it's about what's finding what's right for you and what's motivating. But what are some tips because I read this all the time just on social media posts and things how and I see it actually in a lot of authors acknowledgments. Like they often start their acknowledgments with writing can be a lonely business. How can people

Cassie Newell (11:18.318)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (11:38.766)
If you're just out there and you're starting, how do you think they can find, like how did you find J. Thorne's group? Was it?

K.S. Barton (11:48.407)
That's a good question. I think I might have seen him on like one of those writers summits where they have a lot of different speakers. He also had a podcast at the time and maybe I don't know exactly how I came across it, but it was just one of those things like all of a sudden his name was popping up and I was seeing him and hearing him places. And I think that's when I joined the community. But if like, if you were looking for some kind of a group,

Angela Haas (11:55.648)
Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Angela Haas (12:00.355)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (12:09.624)
Sure.

Angela Haas (12:13.23)
Yeah.

K.S. Barton (12:18.079)
I know some people will do things like just kind of put it out there on some random group. I'm looking for critique partners and honestly, I don't think that's a great way to go because you just never know what you're going to get or you might be writing your third book or something and you might end up with somebody who hasn't even started writing their first book and you're not in the right places or the same place. You just never know what you're going to get, how committed they are.

Angela Haas (12:18.894)
Yeah.

K.S. Barton (12:47.561)
and all of those things. So I would recommend joining some of these online groups and then just participating in them and then getting to know people organically and then finding like, yeah, I get along well with this person or this person writes something similar to me. So maybe we're going to meet and have a little critique group or something like that. And you just kind of throw it out there. I don't know. It doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.

Angela Haas (13:12.916)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie, how did you, we're both in Sacha Black's Rebel Authors. I joined because of the podcast. think is that how you, yeah.

Cassie Newell (13:24.802)
Yeah, I found her actually where she was a guest on someone else's YouTube channel. And there was a bunch of interviews and I saw her and I was like, let me check this out. Actually didn't know about the, podcast directly until I started snooping. So you just become a snoop when you become a writer to find the groups and where you might fit. But originally I went to a local community as well in my area and we would meet in person.

Angela Haas (13:31.971)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (13:44.204)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (13:54.596)
This was like in 2014 or 15. And it was great, but the problem I was having was that there was a small section of the critique group that knew anything about young adult fantasy. Everyone else was writing like war and military things. They were older men and...

it was just a division and some of them were really harsh in their critiques. Like people sometimes would walk away crying. It was ridiculous. yeah. And so, and when you're new and you're thinking, but they're published or they have this, you put them on a pedestal until you kind of get a little weight under your belt and you're like, they're full of shit. You know, because at some point, you know, your genre better than those who are not in it.

Angela Haas (14:22.278)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (14:25.813)
my! Yikes.

Angela Haas (14:34.094)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (14:48.012)
So I've had good experiences and bad experiences, but I think how Angela and I met in this one group is that there's just good camaraderie. Everybody is just super supportive, which is the exact opposite of where I had been. And then, you know, I've also been online with other local groups that I adore, but everybody was in such a different.

Angela Haas (15:03.726)
you

Cassie Newell (15:16.076)
place I didn't always feel like I fit in, whereas other places I did. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a lot of trial and error. But I'm kind of curious, Kim, can you share a turning point or a significant moment when your community played a crucial role in your writing journey, besides getting down words? Because it sounds like it really motivated you.

K.S. Barton (15:42.645)
Yeah, definitely. I don't think I would have gotten my first book written if it hadn't been for my critique group. But one time that was really pivotal was it was one of my local groups and my group had read through my book chapter by chapter. Each week I did submit a chapter or two. And then when it was all done and I'd done some revisions and I sent it to one of the members who

Cassie Newell (15:47.65)
Really.

K.S. Barton (16:11.893)
I asked to do like a beta read from, you know, just start to finish. And when she finished it, she came up to me and she said, I'm sorry to tell you, but I don't like your main male character. And I was like, eesh, he's the main love interest. He's the main character we're supposed to. This was the second book in a trilogy. And I was like, you kind of have to like him. And I was like, no. But I thought, well, I'll just do some tweaks and fix it.

And so I went through and I read through it and I realized that she was right. She was absolutely right. This whole subplot and this extra character who went in it made him unlikable. And so I had to basically scrap a bunch of that book and basically do a page one rewrite. And it's like, you know, that was not...

Angela Haas (16:57.038)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (16:58.18)
Hmm.

K.S. Barton (17:07.689)
what I wanted to hear from her, but it made it so much better. And I'm grateful to her that she felt comfortable enough to be just really honest with me, with her feedback. She wasn't mean about it. She wasn't trying to bring me down or take me down a peg or anything. She was really like, I'm really sorry, but he's not working for me. So,

Cassie Newell (17:12.44)
and made it better.

Cassie Newell (17:20.932)
honest.

Angela Haas (17:25.902)
boy, yeah.

K.S. Barton (17:36.789)
It was painful. It was a really painful experience and it was time consuming. And if it hadn't been the second book in a trilogy, I might've just abandoned the book because I actually had to rewrite it again because it still wasn't hitting the way I wanted it to. But, you know.

Cassie Newell (17:38.382)
Right.

Angela Haas (17:55.118)
That did it happen to me with but I had three beta readers all say the same thing because one said it they didn't like a male character and I was like, oh you're just not seeing that he's this and this and then The other one came in and said I don't like this character the other one. I hate this guy and then That's part of when you're a writer. You have to kill your darlings, right? We have to let go

Cassie Newell (17:55.329)
Wow.

Angela Haas (18:22.582)
And they're still readers. Your beta readers are representing readers. so sometimes you can get so much great feedback just from people like that. I rewrote it. I liked him so much more after the rewrite. But I will say for any listener who's in a beta reader group, I was in a group and one person was giving such mean feedback like

You have to take constructive criticism, but there's a way that you can give feedback so that it doesn't sound hurtful. And you should always start with something positive like, I just love this about this story. This really resonated me. Even if you hate the whole story, find something positive. Then you can come in with like, but here's what didn't work for me. And then start that way.

But I've had people like, I hated this. This was terrible. And you're just like, excuse me. That shuts down all communication. So for listeners as beta readers, you've got to find a way to give feedback that keeps the communication open and then gets your point across. But Cassie, did that ever happen to you where you had a beta reader give you feedback that you just weren't expecting or weren't really?

K.S. Barton (19:27.244)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (19:27.972)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (19:48.834)
Yeah, the... Sometimes with the local group, it was interesting because I knew which critiques I would immediately ignore and which ones I would accept. You kind of get in that kind of frame. Yeah, I've worked more with writing coaches, which I kind of look at as part of my community.

Angela Haas (19:49.13)
envisioning and then it helped the story.

Cassie Newell (20:17.356)
in the same vein, because I'm turning in pages and working through outlines with them and things like that. I think working with you, Angela, as my alpha reader has helped me a lot too. And some others where I was working on these short romances and they were like, OK, the smexy times can't happen this soon because why do I need to read the rest of it? You know, I've got to have the conflict. And I was like, my god. So.

Angela Haas (20:29.57)
You

Angela Haas (20:38.83)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (20:46.326)
Yeah, and you can't see the forest for the trees sometimes when you're writing your own story. Yeah, I find it interesting because I've tried to build communities from scratch too. Like I've tried like during my more young adult fantasy time of writing, I was trying to find that crew.

Angela Haas (20:50.094)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (21:09.25)
right, and trying to get them into a community. And I find that to be super difficult. I find it easier to join communities that are already established. Kim, is that kind of where you've gone is already established communities or have you built your own?

Angela Haas (21:14.385)
Mm-hmm.

K.S. Barton (21:26.605)
No, I've gone to already established communities. I'm not a build your own community person. I'm the introvert helper who likes to just kind of go along and let somebody else be a leader and take the lead and start things. Yeah, every group I've been in has started by somebody else.

Angela Haas (21:32.526)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (21:33.74)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (21:43.267)
Right.

Cassie Newell (21:49.89)
Are they genre specific for you? Because I know when we were talking about the Norse mythology, like you had talked about going to a group, a friend had invited you to another group. And I'm just curious, were they specific to the genre or research you were doing in which you joined those groups? Or have you been at?

free for all communities or like, what is it? Can you describe it? Because I think new readers, new writers are always like, where do I go first? Right?

Angela Haas (22:13.654)
Mm hmm.

K.S. Barton (22:23.053)
My necklace came off. Yeah, no, I've only, I'm working with somebody right now who's more genre specific, but my other groups have all been a mix. And my longest running critique group, one of the writers does paranormal romance, the other does horror romance, and the other does urban fantasy, YA urban fantasy. And so there's a mix. And I think...

Cassie Newell (22:30.724)
Mm-hmm.

K.S. Barton (22:50.765)
I think it helps to know someone's genre, but I don't think it's necessary. think if you're all like you have similar goals or you're in like maybe this, you have, especially with the group, like my group set up rules, nobody's doing any line editing or anything like that. We're looking at big structural issues. Like, the last chapter you had your character do this and like...

Angela Haas (23:01.114)
Right. Right.

K.S. Barton (23:16.449)
this now they're doing this and it's completely out of character or, you know, big, things like that, or this isn't making sense. This is confusing me or things like that. We're not, we're not nitpicking, but at the same time, I don't read a ton of romance. So when the romance writers in my group, when there's something where I'm like, this isn't hitting with me. I'm like, is this because it's a genre specific thing? When I'll ask.

Angela Haas (23:33.044)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (23:43.012)
you

K.S. Barton (23:45.281)
I'll be like, okay, like this, whatever, you know, whatever it might be, I'll ask them. like, is this a romance thing? Like I've read enough romance to know like the major beats and I've even read romancing the beat before. And just like I have, I've read enough to kind of not be completely in the dark, but sometimes I'll just flat out ask them, is this a romance specific thing that you're doing or a trope or something? And I'm just not liking it because it's just not my jam.

So we do do that. And sometimes I've had to say that with them too, like, no, historical fiction readers are okay with this, you know, or something like that.

Angela Haas (24:23.024)
Right. You have written a romance,

Cassie Newell (24:23.918)
Right.

K.S. Barton (24:27.969)
have? No, I'm kidding. Yeah. Which one are you talking about?

Angela Haas (24:29.12)
Isn't that what? I'm sorry.

Cassie Newell (24:31.886)
love it! I have?

Angela Haas (24:34.158)
Thank

Isn't it in her shoes? On her shoes? What's her recent? On her toes!

K.S. Barton (24:39.903)
On her toes. yes, the 80s. It's actually primarily a coming of age book, but the romance is pretty heavy. It has a lot of the romance beats.

Angela Haas (24:48.494)
Okay, yeah.

I yeah. Yeah, I was like, I'm sorry, I think you're romance writer. Well, it cool because it was 80s too. it was so like, loved the nostalgia of it. Being a Gen Xer, you know, I just loved that.

K.S. Barton (25:09.911)
Thank you. It was a nice palate cleanser after writing about Vikings to just like, I'm just gonna write something completely different in a completely different time period. A time period I'm well familiar with. was just, yeah. Yeah, it was fun to write. It was easier to write than the Viking stuff because the research was easy. One, I just remembered a lot of stuff and two, it was super easy to just do

Angela Haas (25:14.274)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (25:20.526)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (25:24.463)
football in it. mean like it's a sports romance too. That so cool. Anyway.

Cassie Newell (25:27.204)
That's awesome.

Angela Haas (25:35.354)
yeah.

K.S. Barton (25:39.757)
a search of who was on the cover of Tiger Beat Magazine in such and such month of 1984.

Angela Haas (25:46.83)
Tiger V. God, I used to love Tiger V. Yep, tape on the wall, yes. I had a big crush on Emilio Estevez, but we can talk about that later. I don't know why. I watched Young Guns and I was like, that's it. I'm gonna marry this man. I mean, obviously. It didn't work out, but anyway, back to the community building.

Cassie Newell (25:50.911)
my gosh, I love it. I used to tear those pages out right on my wall.

Cassie Newell (25:59.064)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (26:02.466)
Me too!

Angela Haas (26:16.654)
So what do you think? Because you can find like your people, but how do you know when it's not your people? Like how do you know when something isn't serving you and listening to that? Because there's been times that I've stayed in groups way longer than I should have because I don't know why we feel guilty all the time. Like maybe it's the Catholic guilt in my Italian-ness, but it's also like, I don't know how to leave and not be weird because you still like,

In business too, but I think in writing, like don't burn bridges. You never know who's going to pop up in somewhere. You're going to interact with this person. Everyone, you know, talks, the circles are still small. So how do you leave a group with a little grace? And now that it's up to me.

K.S. Barton (27:06.475)
You know, I think we have that sunk cost fallacy, you know, that we, well, I've put a lot of effort into this group, you know, they're reading my stuff, I'm reading their stuff. But I think you need to think about the cost of staying if it's not okay. Because sometimes that cost can be catastrophic, because I was in a group once and one of the people was, this was a long time ago when I was first starting, she was just, she could just be downright.

Angela Haas (27:10.147)
Mm-hmm.

in

Angela Haas (27:20.993)
Yeah.

K.S. Barton (27:36.211)
mean. Her feedback often felt like she just wanted to take me down rather than help me and lift me up. There were times where I would leave those groups crying. I remember one time coming home and lying in the bed and being like, I'm a terrible writer. I should never write again. What am I doing? That kind of thing. That could have been the day where I just quit.

Angela Haas (27:37.289)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (27:46.678)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (27:50.254)
I

K.S. Barton (28:06.027)
right? But for, I don't remember why I didn't, probably somebody else in the group gave me a pep talk. But yeah, so I didn't leave that group. That person ended up leaving the group for some other reason. I should have, you know, I look back and I think, yeah, that wasn't okay to leave feeling like I was a terrible writer and I shouldn't be doing this. But at the time I was still just a baby writer and I

Angela Haas (28:21.706)
I was lucky. Yeah.

K.S. Barton (28:35.863)
didn't know that I shouldn't put up with this. So I think you need to think about the cost of staying if you're going to stay. Or if you're in a group where you're putting a lot of effort into reading other people's submissions and they're just not reciprocating, either not reading yours or just kind of half-assing it. And it's just like, well, why am I putting in the time and effort when you're not? I think, I don't know, just say it's not right for you.

Angela Haas (28:39.298)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (28:58.478)
no.

Cassie Newell (28:59.234)
Mm, that's so good.

K.S. Barton (29:05.133)
It's not working out. I don't think you need to go in unless you somebody really wants to say like, you know, your, your criticism is just to mean spirited. But for me, I'm kind of a coward. I hate confrontation. So I would just probably say like, this just isn't working out. And I would, you know, just, just leave that way. Like you said, you don't want to burn a bunch of bridges and just leave that opening.

Angela Haas (29:25.422)
Yeah. Cassie, what do you think? Have you ever had to leave a group that wasn't working?

Cassie Newell (29:38.294)
yeah. Well, I'm a little ballsy and a little sassy. But but at the same time, you know, I also was raised to respect my elders. So it always like killed me a little bit inside sometimes. But I feel like you get to a point where. As you said, it doesn't serve you anymore. The value just sinks and it sinks.

Angela Haas (29:43.348)
yeah, can't see.

Cassie Newell (30:08.076)
your motivation and energy. And I noticed that when something isn't bringing up my energy, and I'm just dreading it. And also, it was like always an hour drive in an hour drive home. It was just too far away to even though there were people I adored, and I still keep in contact with, but very briefly, but it's just I think you just realize when it doesn't fit you anymore. And you just really have to think of yourself.

and what your goals are. Because some people's goals in those groups are not your goals. And I think you have to come to realization of that and then find the like-minded people that you can still stay in touch with. And it can be a little lonesome and it takes a while. I mean, I'm talking at 2014 and here it is 2025.

Angela Haas (31:01.167)
huh.

Cassie Newell (31:02.776)
And it's taken me a long time to find those people I feel comfortable in talking with and reaching out to. And I'm still discovering new people with me and around me. So I think you just have to be open to it and Creative Souls, we are a quirky bunch. So it's never a straight shooting kind of, this is an accountant conference at all.

I mean, they're all types of walks in life and you've just got to be very flexible, but know who you are and what you need and what your goals are. That's what I would say. Yeah, maybe I haven't heard of any. Have you?

Angela Haas (31:39.308)
I think accountant conferences get wild though. I think they let loose. Yes, actually that's a whole other podcast, but I was in a group too that was frustrating because we weren't at the same level, which is, know, as long as it's close, you can always help other people, but the, was a person in the group that would never take the advice.

K.S. Barton (31:45.965)
You

Cassie Newell (31:49.781)
Okay, yeah, different topic.

Angela Haas (32:08.97)
of everyone in the group. They just never changed. It was the same document for weeks. It was the same. It was same issues. They weren't seeing it or they weren't willing to like, if four people are saying, hey, this is what you need to adjust. You might want to listen to that. And it got frustrating because I felt like I couldn't help this person. And they're

comments weren't helpful to me. And so it's like, you know, I'm also putting in work and trying to be helpful. If you're not willing to listen, and if you can't take criticism for listeners out there, then maybe being in a critique group isn't it's not the right time for you because you've got to give and you've got to get and that's how the balance goes. So yeah.

K.S. Barton (32:57.407)
Also, you really do, even if your critique partners or your beta readers aren't being mean, you still have to develop a thick skin because like, you know, my one beta reader telling me, don't like your character and I had to, that hurt. Like that wasn't easy to hear. I'd put a lot of time and effort into writing that book. It was a full novel and to realize I was going to have to totally rewrite it. I mean, that hurt.

Angela Haas (33:08.204)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

K.S. Barton (33:25.057)
But at that point I was like, okay, she means well, she's trying to help me. Any kind of beta, I mean, like Cassie said, I had like three different people, no, that was you, Angela, tell me like three different beta readers, tell me something about one of my characters. It was all the same thing. And I went, okay, if three beta readers are telling me the exact same thing, I've got to fix this.

And you do have to develop a thick skin. Like mine's not super thick. Like I don't read my reviews. I have my husband do that for me. I actually ask him like, you see, I ask him if he sees a pattern, like if a lot of people are complaining about this, I want to hear about it. So far he hasn't said anything. There's nothing that he said, but I can't read it. Cause I know like reading one bad review or even like a mediocre review will.

throw me off the rails. I know for my own mental health, I can't read reviews. So he'll send me some nice ones and then he just keeps track. And so far there's nothing like, yeah, everybody's complaining about this or whatever. So the critique groups do help to develop that thick skin if they're coming from a place of trying to help you. The people who are just trying to be mean and take you down, they're not.

Cassie Newell (34:20.482)
Mmm.

Angela Haas (34:37.166)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (34:39.833)
Yeah.

K.S. Barton (34:46.679)
They're not helping you develop a thick skin. They're just tearing you down and just run away as fast as you can, even if you're a first time writer. Don't put up with that.

Cassie Newell (34:56.632)
Yeah, absolutely. This was really good.

Angela Haas (34:59.758)
I agree. Cassie, do you have another question for Kim that you? Yeah, I think, I think it's just important. think networking can be difficult in fit in person or online. And I think it's almost harder online because when you're communicating online, a lot of times you're just reading posts, messages. You don't have

Cassie Newell (35:05.304)
No, I think we've reached all my questions, actually.

Angela Haas (35:29.504)
immediate feedback, facial cues, you're not able to, sometimes I've even taken, I've read something quick and taken it the wrong way and then had to go back and be like, okay. And sometimes it was, you know, not a great message. But other times it's like, gosh, I think I just took this the wrong way because it didn't have that feedback. So I think that's part of that thick skin is understanding that

When you're communicating online, you don't have the other cues that tell you how someone's feeling. You don't get immediate feedback and you're not hearing their tone of voice. you know, make sure that, you know, you're being respectful, but also that, you know, you can just kind of handle interacting in this way. It's a little different. I don't know if you feel that too, but.

That's one thing I had to get used to because I love I'm better at face to face sometimes. Sometimes I've struggled online only because you just don't have those other interactions. So. But yeah.

Cassie Newell (36:40.388)
Yeah, I think it's a lot harder for people to be meaner when you're face to face. Although, yeah, me too. I had a few that were very ballsy, regardless, they kind of put themselves on a pedestal. But I do think it takes a lot for people to be a little meaner directly. yeah, and one way you can find groups too, because when I was starting out and I was new where I'm currently living,

K.S. Barton (36:45.357)
I don't know that one person in that one group.

Angela Haas (36:45.644)
yeah.

Cassie Newell (37:10.382)
I actually got on an app to see it's called Meetings or something. And I would just go there to see for publishing. And you just take a chance and show up. if you don't know other writers yet because you're just fiddling with the idea, this is how you find local things. So I just wanted to throw that out there.

Angela Haas (37:30.149)
Yeah. And Facebook, as much as I, it's a love-hate with Facebook, the algorithm is pretty good if it notices your...

you're posting things about writing or liking things about writing, it will recommend certain groups. And that's sometimes a jumping off point to find people. I think listening to podcasts and seeing if that person has a Patreon that you can subscribe to. And a lot of times they might have a group that comes with that. That's another way to find groups. So I think, I think it's important. I think we all need support in this journey.

Cassie Newell (37:45.572)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (38:09.11)
It's just finding the right one for you.

K.S. Barton (38:13.505)
And one thing I would add is that, if you're just starting out, don't allow somebody to change your voice and what you wanna say, because sometimes people are like, well, here's what I would do. And it's like, well, this isn't your story, this is my story. And sometimes it's like, yeah, I need to fix that or this, when...

Angela Haas (38:36.03)
Right. Yes.

K.S. Barton (38:41.005)
Sometimes people in groups start wanting to tell you how to fix things. So they like want to write the book for you and try to, I know it's hard when you're first starting out, the longer you do this, like I'm really secure in my voice and what I want to say in my books now. there's nobody's gonna convince me to do something that's just way off base.

I can see it when somebody's like wanting to rewrite it because that's the way they would do it. But when you're just starting out, it's hard to find that distinction between somebody just trying to give you some help and somebody like, here's how I would write it because I want you to write this book the way I would write it and you lose your voice.

Angela Haas (39:10.15)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (39:21.656)
retooling it.

Cassie Newell (39:28.035)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (39:29.966)
Yeah, I mean that happened to me because I had no self-esteem so I was just giving my I was listening to everyone because I figured well they've been doing it longer so they're probably no better than me but then I ended up having to write a whole book because I lost my way completely I didn't know which was me and everyone else's advice and once I you know I stuck to the advice that again like when three people said the same thing

That's when I started to listen. But I had to trust myself that I know what a good story is. And this is the story I would want to read. And sometimes that's the only barometer you have. So you just have to trust yourself that you know more than you think you do, you know, and don't give it away. So that's a great point. It's a really good point. Yeah.

Well, cool. Well, thank you. It's the time in the show where we get to know you at a different level. Those are table topics. Sometimes I just pick like here. no. I said it wasn't like cards against humanity. Okay. Well, Hey, I had no control. The table topics have spoken and this is the question.

K.S. Barton (40:27.593)
Now I'm scared.

Cassie Newell (40:31.46)
You

Angela Haas (40:50.806)
What's your favorite dirty word and why? Hey, we're romance writers.

Cassie Newell (40:57.508)
I'm gonna make this an explicit podcast for my word.

Angela Haas (41:01.07)
lord!

K.S. Barton (41:07.168)
Dirty word? Like a curse word? Kinda dirty?

Angela Haas (41:11.21)
It just says dirty word. I mean, whatever comes to you.

K.S. Barton (41:17.261)
Honestly, the first word that comes to mind is fuck. I say it too much probably and yeah. I don't use it in my Viking book because I don't think they said it, even though the sentiment was probably there.

Cassie Newell (41:20.792)
Me too. That's the first word.

Angela Haas (41:28.472)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (41:36.352)
Is there a Viking curse word that you can leave us with so that if we're in a meeting, we can use the Viking version and not embarrass ourselves?

K.S. Barton (41:46.253)
I've used the one that's coming to mind is I think it's, I don't know how it would be pronounced. Sipill, S-I-P-I-L-L. It just means like a fool or an idiot. He's a sipill. Okay.

Angela Haas (41:57.673)
Okay.

I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna put that in my arsenal. Okay, so Cassie, think we're all, that's probably, yeah.

Cassie Newell (42:08.44)
Yeah, the F-bomb is probably my favorite. And I noticed my older adult children use it like just in the vernacular. It's like descriptive, it's an emotive word, and yet I'm a romance writer, so I write about it. It's got all the glorious rainbow meanings, you know? And at the same time, it's almost a joking thing as well.

K.S. Barton (42:18.445)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (42:24.694)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (42:28.642)
Right.

Angela Haas (42:33.933)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (42:38.764)
I'm, I just, it's an easy word to throw in as an adjective on so many things. So yeah, that would be me. It was like the F bomb is definitely the one. And it's funny, I go in seasons too, where I say it way more than I should. And then I won't cuss at all. You know, it's I, it's, it's funny how that works out. So, but the

Angela Haas (42:46.326)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (42:57.96)
yeah.

K.S. Barton (43:04.609)
I'm saying it a lot right now, so.

Angela Haas (43:07.66)
Yeah, yeah, it's a season for it. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (43:08.196)
Yeah, yeah. There's a season for it, I'm just saying. But yeah, so Angela, what? Yeah.

K.S. Barton (43:13.096)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (43:15.756)
I think the same, if that's the one that I just kind of use, don't really have, I mean, I don't, I sometimes if I'm on a roll, I'm swearing, like if I'm like, you know, worked up about something, but that I use it, I've used it. I have some of those peppered in, because I think that's part of people swear. That's part of dialogue, you know, but I've read where romance readers like.

certain ones if it's truly like every line they get it gets tedious for people. So but yeah, that's my go to. I guess that's a dirty word. I think they're just like swear word instead of like you can get really dirty like dirty words. I know that some of our friends were on this podcast, they take this to a different level and we are not not today. Okay. So yeah, no. Hello. No.

Cassie Newell (43:47.705)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (44:05.412)
Well, I was trying not to.

Angela Haas (44:11.684)
well.

K.S. Barton (44:12.609)
That's a fun thing about like reading and watching British stuff.

Cassie Newell (44:12.612)
You

Cassie Newell (44:16.345)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (44:16.693)
yeah. yeah. I know.

Cassie Newell (44:19.67)
It's part of the vernacular. It's descriptive, it's emotive, it's a way to drive. It's like all the things.

Angela Haas (44:27.118)
Right. No, when I first started listening to Sacha Black's podcast, she just started swearing and dropping the F-bomb and I was like, oh, um, oh, people just, wow, you just swearing. No, not anymore. It was like,

Cassie Newell (44:40.33)
even I don't even hear it anymore. Like it's I'm not even I'm not even shocked from my kids to everything. Now if they had spoken that way in front of my grandparents, like I would have been looked at very horribly. And actually my own parents, I was like, Can you tone it down just a little and they're like, I've got to be me and of course my parents at their age now just whatever. And I'm like, wait a minute.

Angela Haas (44:52.299)
Yes.

Angela Haas (45:03.246)
you

Cassie Newell (45:07.681)
Like I remember being thrown down the stairs for saying shit. So yeah, it's a crazy world, but

Angela Haas (45:12.642)
Yeah, we didn't swear in our household, not at all. yeah, that's why we do it now. Hello. Yes. Well, excellent talk today, ladies. Thank you so much for joining us. Listeners? Yeah, thank you. It was fun.

K.S. Barton (45:16.52)
Mine either.

Cassie Newell (45:16.664)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-mm. No. Re-rebell.

K.S. Barton (45:23.724)
you

K.S. Barton (45:31.191)
Thank you for having me.

Cassie Newell (45:33.026)
Yeah, it's lovely, Kim, thank you.

Angela Haas (45:35.818)
Listeners don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you're listening to the podcast. It really helps us It'll make us like you and that's worth a lot Next week starts a new month where we talk about the dreaded word. That's a dirty word marketing Yeah, we're gonna dive right in. So thank you until next time keep writing keep creating keep going

Cassie Newell (45:54.168)
Marketing!