Episode 10: The Marketing Monster: Love It Or Hate It?

Cassie Newell (00:08.356)
Welcome to episode 10. It's episode 10. I'm Cassie Newell and I'm here with my co-host Angela Haas and this month is all about marketing. This episode we're talking about our love hate relationship with marketing. Angela's already shaking her head like mostly hate, mostly hate. All right, so let's just dive right into it. So why is marketing so painful, Angela?

Angela Haas (00:25.927)
Mostly hate. I just say mostly.

Angela Haas (00:38.082)
Well, I think it depends on the author, obviously, but for me, I just want to write. And I think that is the consensus when I've talked to other writers. I did do a survey on this. I across multiple platforms, I put out a survey that said, hey, indie authors, what's the most painful part of

this business outlining, drafting, editing, marketing. 75 people responded. 89 % said marketing because I think for us, the fun stuff is the creation. I even like, I'm not really an outliner, but I, I do love the editing phase where you're drafting. You're really getting to that finished product. And I feel like for me, marketing is that just that monster.

under the bed that's like, hey, you've got to put your books out there. You have to tell people about it. How are you doing it? What platform? it's just, it comes at you. And sometimes I don't know where to start. Sometimes I get discouraged because I feel like I work so hard and I put a lot of energy into marketing and then you don't see the return. It's a long game.

It's exhausting and then you just have to compete with so much other noise. And I think it's hard for others to put themselves out there. Sometimes I can market for you or anything else I love all day. When it comes to me, I feel like sometimes we feel it's a, you know, putting a burden, like, can you buy my book? So yeah, what do you think? What do you feel like?

Cassie Newell (02:05.349)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (02:23.852)
Yeah. Yeah, I totally get that. Yeah, I'm in like this glory moment, I think. I think I've had a real mindset shift. And I think it's been because I'm, you know, somewhat rapid releasing. And I've had a lot of arcs, back to back to back. And so I'm meeting my readers. And that excites me, like you said,

Angela Haas (02:50.82)
Mm-hmm. Hey, I think we should pause. You keep freezing. You are frozen right now.

Cassie Newell (02:53.208)
I could mark it all day for everybody else, right? But when it comes to me, it's a little difficult. So when they're coming back to me going, love your books and I want to be on the next arc or I would love to.

it could.

Okay, but it says it's 92 % uploading. So it just could be behind in the upload.

Angela Haas (03:21.159)
Maybe. Yeah, I'll keep an eye out for this, but you're frozen right now. This never happened before. No, I know, but I'm just saying, your video froze. You're so sassy sometimes. I know, but I can tell, like it's, you know, so yeah.

Cassie Newell (03:26.894)
Well, I'm not moving. It's like, I'm not moving. I'm like, but I'm not moving.

Okay, should I stop?

Angela Haas (03:43.222)
Like even though your lips were moving, you were speaking, but your lips weren't moving.

Cassie Newell (03:48.944)
Yeah, it's even lower now. It's 77%. Shit.

Angela Haas (03:49.464)
So weird.

Angela Haas (03:55.512)
mine says 99 % uploading.

Cassie Newell (03:58.276)
I know, but that's for you. I'm looking, cause it's like each of us. And then when I stop us, then I can see everybody's, but mine, mine just jumped up. Maybe I'm having internet issues.

Angela Haas (04:00.287)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (04:07.864)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (04:15.65)
I'll listen still at work using bandwidth. Okay. I have no idea what I was saying.

Angela Haas (04:26.05)
So sorry. It just froze the whole time.

Cassie Newell (04:27.354)
That's okay.

Okay, so I've had arcs go out, which has been fabulous. And I'm meeting readers, which I think has been pushing me to be more excited about marketing and to meet more of my readers that way, because they're coming back going, I would love this, or I would love to be a part of this next arc. And I started engaging a little bit more in my newsletter. And I think that happened.

Angela Haas (04:50.03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (05:01.146)
helped to because I was like, well, what kind of formats would you want in these shorts besides an ebook? You know, and they're coming back, we want audio, we want paperbacks, like we want all the things like I'm more of an audio listener, I'm more of this, we want trophies for our shelves, we don't care if they're small, you know, like all the things. And that like encourages me, it like helps me move further into the marketing realm. And I think that

Angela Haas (05:22.789)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (05:28.28)
I'm just looking at it more as a challenge and more as, okay, this is my building year. I think too, I've also been in the same spot of no return being monetary. And right now I'm looking at return as building more so audience wise, not so much monetary. I would love to see the monetary at some point.

Angela Haas (05:52.726)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (05:54.424)
And all those strategies pay off like you say is a long game. But for right now, I don't know, I'm kind of digging it. And I'm kind of having a good time for once.

Angela Haas (06:04.312)
That's good. No, that's goal, I think. think part of it is mastering your marketing, but also the art of enjoying the marketing, enjoying seeing some return, enjoying connecting with readers. And I do enjoy those parts, but...

Cassie Newell (06:19.418)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (06:24.079)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (06:28.846)
Sometimes I'm on a roll writing wise and then all of a sudden I have to stop and plan a day of hours of planning posts, making videos, scheduling, where's my newsletter? I think that piece gets really overwhelming for me. And it is a piece where there's respondents in my survey. It was just a no brainer. They just hate.

Cassie Newell (06:40.494)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (06:56.94)
that part of it. that's, you know, when you're an indie author, it's all on you. And I think a lot of people don't always understand that. But, you know, just general readers, how much indie authors have to do, have to work to be seen, especially in fields and genres that are so competitive, like romance, where we both are.

Cassie Newell (07:24.132)
Yeah, fantasy.

Angela Haas (07:24.378)
so that that's just part of it. Yeah. Romantic fantasy. mean, they're all competitive, you know, there's not really, unless you're doing super niche, there's a lot of competition either way. So, but I'm excited to explore marketing this month. We've got two really great guests, Jenn de Paula and Amy Vansant, both marketing gurus in their own right. And I'm excited to.

Cassie Newell (07:30.127)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (07:36.622)
Right.

Angela Haas (07:52.77)
have them on to discuss what they do, what they figured out because that's where I learn. I love learning from people who've already navigated the waters.

Cassie Newell (08:02.316)
Yeah, yeah, it's funny, I think of marketing also as a part of mindset. So I think that when you're planning your day, it's been really helpful for me. Sometimes not to plan, because as I'm building, sometimes I think, this is the time I need to write, but really, this is the time I need to market or look at, you know, posting something really quickly.

Angela Haas (08:18.317)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (08:30.358)
Right. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (08:30.704)
I'm in the stage of building where I'm posting three times a day and it gets exhausting a little bit and really quick videos and not trying to be perfect. You know, just trying to get things out there and be as authentic as I can be and also say, hey, I've got this book, you know, at the same time and find my readers. So

Angela Haas (08:52.587)
Right.

Cassie Newell (08:57.316)
I don't know, I find marketing has a lot to do with mindset and how you plan, how you pivot, how you can add some flexibility to that. I think it just gets really frustrating when it gets stagnant and you're not growing or you're not seeing your goals being fulfilled. It's going to be interesting because I've worked with Jenn for a really long time and she has three different pillars.

Angela Haas (09:09.962)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (09:27.3)
to social media and marketing. And we'll definitely probably dive into that a little bit. But I think once you figure out your key audience and you can really hone in and niche yourself, it becomes a little bit more satisfying. And I can remember my very first book, I was all over the place in marketing. I'm like halfway marketing myself as a person, halfway marketing my book.

Angela Haas (09:27.814)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (09:54.138)
kind of in young adult, but mostly I was seeing authors. I wasn't seeing my readers, you know, and then I'm like marketing over here, you know, trying to market it as a series, like come find my completed series. Like there's a lot of noise and messages around, let me get you all the followers. Let me get you all of this. That doesn't always equate to building or sales in the right way, in an authentic way.

Angela Haas (09:58.849)
Right.

Angela Haas (10:15.384)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (10:22.938)
Those are tough lessons that I've learned. don't know, have you had some tough lessons in marketing so far in your career here?

Angela Haas (10:32.392)
yeah, I mean, I could serve as a warning to others just in general, like my whole writer career, because I've, I have gone down some wrong roads. I think I had to really learn where to invest my money. In the beginning, I was just signing up for everything. I was spending money. And the only reason I have capital to do this is because I have a whole other

Cassie Newell (10:42.259)
that's not true.

Angela Haas (11:02.882)
day job we own our own businesses, you know, so that's the only reason I can say lightly that I spent money where I probably shouldn't have signing up for everything, just jumping on it without doing a lot of research and talking to people. And now I feel like I've gotten to the point, especially we are both signed up for Bryan Cohen's Groundbreakers, which I'm really excited about because

Cassie Newell (11:27.546)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (11:32.366)
I feel like that's something I should have had a long time ago. I just didn't know it was out there. But for me, that's a great investment because it's really targeted for you. And that's where I feel like I spent money on marketing that classes or things that I didn't need, like I already knew and I needed to trust myself that I knew more than I admitted to myself. I love that there's

Cassie Newell (11:56.484)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (12:00.994)
things like ground breakers where you get coaching, accountability, and just general community help for all your needs. And you set your goals and then you're off to the races. And I'm really excited to have that kind of help because it's the accountability that I need. I have a newsletter and I have a lot of subscribers. I'm not very consistent because I kind of

Cassie Newell (12:27.696)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (12:28.046)
put it off or I try to tell myself I don't know what to say and then I just I need consistency is like my key word those around the way answer but that that's kind of what I've learned that that's that's what I've learned.

Cassie Newell (12:40.59)
I love it. Yeah, I've always had coaches. And I became a coach through Jennie Nash's program, Author Accelerator. And I find having a creative coach is so helpful because it does make you accountable. It's like going to the gym, right? And you hire a trainer. Typically, you show up because you paid that trainer. You have a goal, right? It's the same concept in writing. And even if it's

Angela Haas (12:52.472)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Cassie Newell (13:10.094)
you know, more around the global career that you want, or it's, you know, for a specific project, you know, all of those things, you've got a lot of different services available to you. And I I'm really excited about the mastermind that you're speaking on, because I think it's more of a round robin for all of those things and the goals. Most of the time you find coaches that are this one thing, this editor, this one thing.

Angela Haas (13:36.397)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (13:38.638)
that, you know, it's usually one, but this seems to be more full circle and more aligned. So that'll be really fun and interesting, I think, over the next six months that we'll be doing that. But I'm curious when it comes to marketing, like, do you have fears or concerns with marketing right now?

Angela Haas (14:07.058)
Just that I don't want to waste any more money. I've wasted so much money putting investing in the wrong thing. That's partially why I haven't really put more into Facebook advertising because a lot of the classes I've took and coaching, it says that you've got to plan to lose a certain amount of money until you figure out what's working, which makes sense. Like I get that.

Cassie Newell (14:09.827)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (14:36.366)
But business-wise, don't want to lose money right now. So I need to adjust and say, can I still use Facebook but wait until I have more product to sell to, you know, run ads? Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (14:53.018)
Hmm. Well, that's more strategic. That's certainly more strategic. I think it's tough when you don't know what you don't know, but you're told to do X, Y, and Z. Right? That's always a loss in gains, but always, you know, upward momentum and learning. But they're tough lessons and they suck. I mean, don't they? Yeah.

Angela Haas (15:16.58)
Yeah. I mean, I and honestly, what I'm trying to do more, I do better in person anyway, I sell more in person events. I spent probably $500 running five to 700 I think it by the time I did an initial run and then more targeted ads, and I sold one book.

and was supposedly reached thousands of people. And that's what I don't always like because Meta is a little, they can say you've reached 4,000 people. You don't have necessarily the hard data. And when I went to an in-person book selling event, I sold four books. So, which isn't that much, I wasn't there for very long, but I still got more money.

you know, then selling that working so hard for that one book, every book launch I've done, I've sold 40 books and that made more than, you know, trying to market and sell Amazon ads and Facebook ads. Although we're going to learn more about Amazon ads, which I think might be slightly better for me to understand because Facebook also it's constantly changing. is constantly changing. Even the classes that I just took six months ago.

they're almost slightly out of date. And that's the frustrating part, that it just changes so fast by the time you get a handle on it. So it forces you to be more creative.

Cassie Newell (16:47.706)
How do

What do you think of the topic about managing your expectations around marketing for book one? Because you hear a lot of individuals say, but book one, book two, book three, you really don't make money until you have 10 books, things like that. What do you think about when you hear that kind of, I don't want to say rhetoric, but it's pretty common.

Angela Haas (17:09.058)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (17:17.101)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (17:19.06)
voice points that you hear in this industry takes you 10 plus books or series, whatever the case may be. What do you think of that?

Angela Haas (17:29.536)
I agree with that in a way. That's why I decided I'm going to focus more on producing than I am marketing right now. I'm not going to not market so that you always have to market so that when you do have 10 books, you have people waiting for them. But at the same time, I want to put more into producing those books because I do think it's true. I spent so much money marketing book one and trying to get

Cassie Newell (17:40.528)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (17:58.252)
those people established, but then they were asking for book two, you know? And I think the more you have out there, you run a promo, a free promo or something on one book, they go to their author page, she has all these other ones, I'm gonna buy these. You know, so I think having a catalog, I think it's really important. I think it makes sense. What do you think? What you feel about that?

Cassie Newell (18:25.593)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (18:29.36)
I'm gonna stop us for second.

because you froze instead of me. But now you're good. So I don't know. Okay, we'll delete that section out. So I'm going to be a little bit of an opposition. I think that you can market your first book because I think that helps you build your first newsletter and get your early readers. But I also think it is a balance of marketing and production.

Angela Haas (18:35.193)
Okay, I'm wow, didn't

Cassie Newell (19:02.512)
Um, I also think when you finish your first book, if I was to do everything all over again from 2016, I would have done what I did with my short romance. I wrote all four last summer. It looks like, you know, I I'm doing them, you know, as I'm going, but I'm not. So I think it's helpful as a writer, if you can control the hitting the putt.

publish button because it's exciting. It's exciting when it's done and you're ready to have it out in the world. If you can control that and really manage your release schedule. I think it's I think it's really helpful. If you can really be strategic about that. I wouldn't say not to put some dollars behind it, but I don't think I would throw everything at it. I agree. But I do think

there's some momentum around a really good strategy release and being able to have kind of a backlog as you're releasing and as you're producing. And I'm finding that right now. And I really like it. I mean, I really like it. So, I don't know, maybe we'll dive into that a little bit more as we both get more strategic input with our coaching and things like that. I mean,

Angela Haas (20:07.89)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (20:28.164)
Yes, I think so. Right.

Cassie Newell (20:30.04)
It also allows me to be flexible because my super secret project, you know, has disrupted my plans too. So now I'm pivoting, but I'm pivoting in a good way. So I feel good about it. And I'm still going to be able to continue to produce what I wanted initially for 2025. I don't know. Marketing is a strange beast, depending on who you talk to.

Angela Haas (21:00.046)
Yeah. I released an audio book.

Cassie Newell (21:00.972)
Boo. Boo hiss. Love you, hate you all around. Love you like a cold sore, as we say. Anyway, all right, so let's just kind of wrap up. We haven't done personal updates in a while, Angela. So let's do some personal updates since it's the beginning of March here. What things have you got going on?

Angela Haas (21:23.87)
And I was like, yeah, I've got this. Hey, I had, and they're going to come on the show and that's going to be an amazing episode, but they were so fun to work with. So easy. Jonathan Ricardo and Ashley Gotti duet. They just handled so many voices and I'm so excited too, but that's a whole other marketing thing. How do you market an audio book?

Cassie Newell (21:25.188)
Wait, what?

Angela Haas (21:51.576)
That's a whole other beast. So I'm learning about that. So we'll be able to update on that later. What about you? What do you got going on? I mean, I know, but everyone else doesn't.

Cassie Newell (22:05.16)
Yeah, Angela knows everything. Well, I'm super excited because book three is launching here in March on March 11 for my short story romances under CK Darling. I'm just like, I can't believe the third book is coming out already. It feels like we just started the podcast and I was saying, yeah, book one comes out in January. And I'm like, book three, it's March. So that's like crazy exciting.

Angela Haas (22:28.79)
Yeah. Crazy.

Cassie Newell (22:35.234)
And then I've started on my super secret project and I'm not going to say much about that. It's super secret and it's going to take me a while to get it done, but I'm excited about it and I'm going to be pushing hard. so yeah, exciting stuff. mean, exciting stuff. I can't believe the first quarter of the year is almost over. Like what? Anyway.

Angela Haas (22:42.478)
It's a secret. Secret.

Angela Haas (22:55.682)
Awesome.

Angela Haas (23:02.234)
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what's going on.

Cassie Newell (23:05.305)
So let's, I know, let's get to our table topics. What we got, what we got today?

Angela Haas (23:11.04)
Let's see. I never know. Let's see what this says. gosh. What's your personal hell?

Cassie Newell (23:20.982)
Angela, marketing. What's your personal health?

Angela Haas (23:23.662)
since marketing.

Cassie Newell (23:32.563)
gosh, I don't know. Do you know what your personal hell is?

Angela Haas (23:35.502)
One thing came to mind like if I was ever in hell this was a way to torture me I hate the sound of pets licking themselves and I have both I had a cat that did it and I was like this is torture I'm gonna die like this is how I die and Then I have bulldogs and all they do is scratch it You know, we're constantly figuring out food allergies and just like things and so and just like the licking the sound of licking hell

Cassie Newell (24:04.0)
my gosh.

Angela Haas (24:04.736)
I hate it more than anything. That's just like a first world problem. But yeah, that's like hell for me hearing pets lick themselves.

Cassie Newell (24:13.456)
Hmm.

Yeah, I think hell for me would be, I don't like snakes at all. Like I've gotten better, but they are rampant in Florida. I actually have a window seal right here. I've had snakes just go across. It freaks me out. Yeah, I don't love snakes. So I've actually, it was so funny.

Angela Haas (24:24.44)
Mm, yeah.

Angela Haas (24:31.703)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (24:36.372)
yeah, Arizona. Yeah. Yup.

Cassie Newell (24:45.904)
quick story. My husband's cousin had a pet snake and he decided to show it off and brought it to grandma's house for Sunday dinner. And I was like, no, no, that cannot be free. And which was like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm leaving. I'm going out the garage because I couldn't go through the living room.

Angela Haas (24:55.598)
The definition of Florida man, like literal Florida man episode. What?

Cassie Newell (25:10.744)
like I can't go through the front door because that's where they are in the living room so I like went around the garage I was like I can't I know that is not okay with me so yeah I've gotten better over the years definitely better over the years but it's me and snakes like I see you I know they don't want to be around me either we are going opposite ways usually but I was taking Piper out back

Angela Haas (25:37.036)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (25:38.806)
and our grass is really thick here in Florida and one just popped up a little black snake, she jumped over it. I'm like, my God. But anyway, yeah, that's my personal hell.

Angela Haas (25:48.851)
Ugh. No. No. Not available. Yeah. Mm-mm. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (25:54.506)
Hmm, no. All right. Well, this was a good discussion. think this kicking off our marketing discussion for March is it's it's a good topic. It's a real good topic. So for our listeners, thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you listen to a podcast because it really helps us out with visibility. So

Angela Haas (26:05.25)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (26:21.52)
Really thank you for listening and sticking with us on these topics and certainly comment and let us know if there's a particular topic you have interest in. Next week, we're talking with Jenn dePaula about marketing and social media. So until next time, keep writing, keep doing. Bye.

Angela Haas (26:37.517)
Bye.