Episode 13: Mastering List Building for Authors with Amy Vansant

Angela Haas (00:02.358)
Welcome to episode 13, List Building and Managing Multiple Genres with our very special guest, Amy Van Sant. I'm Angela Haas and I'm with my lovely co-host and welcome Amy. Thank you so much for being willing to be on the podcast today. Amy is a USA Today Amazon All-Star.

Amy (00:24.839)
My pleasure.

Angela Haas (00:30.294)
and Wall Street Journal bestselling author. She has written over 40 books, including fun, thrilling She McQueen series, the rollicking Twisty, Pineapple, Port Mysteries, and the action-packed Kitty Urban Fantasies, and three rom-coms. She specializes in fun, exciting reads with plenty of laughs and action. She tried to write serious books, but they always end up full of jokes, so she gave up.

Welcome Amy! It's so great to have you. I met Amy through using your service, Authors XP. So can you first though tell us a little bit how you got that started? Because it's an amazing service for authors.

Cassie Newell (01:02.199)
Welcome.

Amy (01:03.279)
Amy (01:22.707)
It started a little differently than it ended up, but the idea was A, marketing books is really hard and I thought it would be nice to be able to network better with other authors and maybe work together towards that end. So I called it the awkward authors XPA because it was originally supposed to be like authors experience where we all kind of hung out and shared our books in each other's newsletters and whatnot. But it turns out

that most authors, because they're so busy with other lives and everything, like nobody could get anything organized and nobody really wanted to worry about getting their books into other people's newsletters, as well as that does work when you do manage to organize it. Then I started to branch out and do newsletters and list building.

and pretty much anything that somebody came to me and if they said, hey, you know, I really wish there was an easier way to get reviews, I would start a review service. I wish there was a way to get beta readers. And so I would do that. So it's grown a lot since 2017, but I think I pretty much have all the bases covered at this point.

Angela Haas (02:35.387)
Yeah, I mean I personally use it and my list has grown from, know, when you're an author starting out it's always your 40 of your family and friends on your email list, which you have to start somewhere, right? But I've heard so many authors say that that is the one question they have, like how do you even

Amy (02:49.709)
Exactly.

Angela Haas (03:00.974)
start? Like, where do even go? And using Authors XP, I've grown mine into 1700 people, which is amazing. I know I still need to really work through that. why? first of all, maybe speak to, I've heard that list building is the most important thing you can do for your marketing, because you

control your list. But what else do you think it's the most important thing versus social media, you know, all the other things that some authors really don't like to do?

Amy (03:41.201)
Well, what you said really taps into every aspect of why it's so important. So we know that Amazon is pretty much 80 % of sales as opposed to like Barnes and Noble and the rest of them. So probably even more than 80%. So they pretty much have a stranglehold on things. they also, she said quietly because she's on Amazon. Don't let them hear me.

they also have started their own imprints. So, you know, when they're doing their own thing and trying to make money off their site from books, they're pushing their books that they came out with, they're pushing the big publishers that they can sell for, you know, $15 a book instead of $2.99. So we're sort of an afterthought. And that whole concept has just been getting harder and harder as time goes on as they get better and better at tweaking their own marketing.

Cassie Newell (04:37.267)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (04:38.555)
So you have no control over that pretty much. Social media, as you know, can flip all over the place. It becomes less useful. It's noisier. Sites that you thought you liked suddenly become sites that you don't like. All kinds of things can happen. And you don't have any control over that. So the only thing you actually do have any control over are the people that are your actual fans, who have said they're your fans, and who you can cultivate and try and get to read

Angela Haas (04:52.712)
you

Amy (05:08.469)
the next book after the next.

Cassie Newell (05:10.142)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (05:11.062)
Yeah. Kelsey, how about your list? How do you cultivate your email list? Because you have a coaching service too, so that also helps, although there may not be that much crossover, but how do you list build?

Cassie Newell (05:16.074)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (05:28.243)
Yeah, so Amy, I have multiple genres, you know, and starting over sometimes and segregating the genres is really difficult, I think. And for myself, when I started a new pen name, I was like, my gosh, I'm starting at zero. You know, so you kind of try to cultivate your current grown list to say, hey, if you like this genre, I'm starting this.

you know, but I've always done like newsletter swaps through book funnel and things like that. And it to me, it's always a long trodging event to do those things. It's it's more of a long game than a short game. And I also realized over the years, engagement is so important in the newsletter, because a lot of times I think newer authors will

are looking at the number, but they're not looking at how to cultivate their list and keep them engaged. What kind of advice do you have for cultivating your newsletter and keeping people engaged? Because it is the one thing you can control, as you said.

Amy (06:46.915)
Definitely, I mean take a second to think about the newsletters that come to you or just anything that comes to you from anyone or anything. There's a lot of them that you know after a while you're just like delete, delete, delete and maybe you never look at it again. Maybe you make a filter so that it shifts somewhere else and you never see it or you just unsubscribe.

Cassie Newell (06:51.849)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (07:06.469)
So the same things you're doing are hitting people that way. if you're constantly, if you do a newsletter too often, they're going to get sick of you. If you do a newsletter that does nothing but say, buy my book every time and it's the same one book or it's the same couple of books, people are just going to stop because there's nothing there. So the best way to keep people is to have some sort of value add to what you're sending them.

other than pushing your books. for me, because humor is kind of my thing, I used to more than I do now, I've gotten a little lazy, but used to put like a little, just a funny story about my dog doing something or whatever, but kept it short and punchy, you know, not a big long drawn out thing for a weak punch line at the end. I would share things that I just happened to, you know, buy or start using that I really, really liked that I thought maybe they would like to.

Angela Haas (08:01.97)
you

Amy (08:04.281)
Easiest thing to do though, you're if you really don't want to create content, which can take a lot of time out of your writing life, is to share books by other authors that are on sale whenever you're getting ready to send out. So it's nice you can sort of collect a little group over time and let them know, look, we're not going to pressure each other. There's no, hey, I've got a new book out. You have to put it in your newsletter or you're ostracized.

Angela Haas (08:15.768)
and

Amy (08:30.255)
just have like a loose affiliation with other authors that you know write the same thing that you do.

Cassie Newell (08:36.511)
Right.

Amy (08:36.549)
And then whenever you're about to send out a newsletter, you can go, Hey everybody, you know, quick email. Does anybody have any books that they're on sale or new or anything like that? And then you can put it in your newsletter and then people know that when they get your newsletter, they're not going to get hammered over the head with buy my book, buy my book that they already bought a year ago. They're going to see other books that are on sale that are like their book, your book that they like. So that's an easy way to quickly add value.

Cassie Newell (08:55.581)
Right.

Cassie Newell (09:05.917)
Right. So I'm also curious, like, is there a crucial marketing strategy for authors as they're trying to build their list? Are there particular things that you would advise a new or more seasoned author, you know, in terms of building their list and kind of leaning in? Are there?

Amy (09:28.935)
I mean, definitely don't buy any lists. It's okay to do giveaways like AXP does and some other sites offer. If you get emails saying, we've got a list of 10 million readers, just don't even bother, because first of all, you're probably going to get nailed for spamming anyway, especially if you're using a third party system like MailChimp or something like that. They don't like getting a whole bunch of...

Cassie Newell (09:33.269)
Mm.

Cassie Newell (09:39.327)
Right.

Cassie Newell (09:44.041)
Yeah.

Amy (09:57.283)
know, rando emails plugged in and sent. So you definitely want to avoid that. All you really can do is make sure that your website has, you know, the join my newsletter thing on there to make sure you mention it in, you know, everything that you do that you can mention it, if you have a presence online or whatever.

and keep joining builders or networking with other authors. Because every time you do something with another author, you're basically swapping lists legally. You're not just saying, hey, give me your list, and bombarding people that didn't expect you to show up. You're building together.

Cassie Newell (10:30.953)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (10:31.021)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (10:36.661)
Do you find it difficult to find authors to swap with when you're just starting out? Because I also find it, right now, my romance is quite young and new with this pen name, and it's a very small list, although my open rate is fabulous. But I'm seeing now,

Angela Haas (10:36.963)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (11:00.041)
people being a little higher in their expectations. you need 2000 people on your list or 1000 minimum to do these things. Like how do you like break into that around people that are setting the bar higher when you're brand new? you know, do you have any, just do a bunch of builders to get there. Yeah.

Amy (11:17.181)
Just joined a bunch of builders, I suppose. Yeah. I think Written Word has one now and Book Sweeps, of course, always the one. Yeah. And we all have different, you know, there's a lot of readers, I'm sure, that go to all the giveaways and whatnot, but they all have slightly different audiences, so you can keep building. And you can do incentives of your own. can, I run a...

Angela Haas (11:21.7)
Yeah. Yeah. I think.

Cassie Newell (11:25.009)
Yeah, I'm trying it.

Amy (11:44.019)
pretty low cost Facebook ad that runs pretty much constantly and it goes to a page on my site where you can win, I think I have a Kindle on there now, Win a Kindle, and sorry, I'm losing my voice. And people can...

Click on the Facebook ad and they go there and then I have my next upcoming book on there, so maybe I'll get a pre-order out of it if I'm lucky and I've got to sign up to my newsletter there and I've got a win the Kindle if you sign up and...

That gives me a little trickle of people all the time at a fairly low cost that is something different than the giveaway sites. The only downside to the giveaway sites are that it's a particular kind of person who's looking for cheap books as a rule. So it's not necessarily people who want to spend a lot of money on books. So if you get them from other places, like maybe running a Facebook ad once in a while, at least you've got a chance of getting maybe higher end readers.

Cassie Newell (12:23.06)
Right.

Cassie Newell (12:44.478)
Right.

Angela Haas (12:44.814)
That's a really good idea to have your own giveaway. So do you just buy your buy a Kindle and then just give it away? Or do you get it? Yeah, so I mean, and I

Cassie Newell (12:48.693)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (12:57.359)
time they have that what's it called amaz- prime day i'll buy like six and then i'll keep them here

Angela Haas (13:02.206)
Okay, yeah

Cassie Newell (13:05.994)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (13:06.818)
That's actually, mean, having your own contest where you can kind of control the prize and that's a really good idea. I actually think I might try that because I recently just started a romance email list and maybe you can speak to that because I didn't do a new pen name, but I feel like I have to have a separate list for

my romance email because I'm doing, I was doing sci-fi fantasy superhero fiction. So I think still, you know, I was really still marketing to women readers, but I don't know that there's enough crossover that I think people who really are signing up for the sci-fi fantasy giveaways aren't going to want a romantic comedy. And you, you know, you have,

You have different genres, so is it harder to get people to split and sign up for both? Or, I mean, how do you manage those two genres? I guess that's my question.

Amy (14:20.435)
started to split it and then it was just too time-consuming. I don't want to be a 24-7 marketer. want to, I gotta go write the books or I won't have anything to market. So I decided to just keep my list all together and if I happen to be pushing, you know, urban fantasy that week or whatever, you know, I try to maybe make sure there was at least something for the cozy mystery people in that newsletter when I sent it out. I don't think I really lost any people

Angela Haas (14:24.718)
Mmm.

Angela Haas (14:31.01)
Right.

Angela Haas (14:47.478)
Okay.

Amy (14:50.409)
because of that, because if you are a fan of the cozy mysteries, you just sort of ignored it when I sent something out for something that you don't like as much. And some of my other ones cross over better than others. it's just everything I do, I'm trying to think, is it worth the extra time that it's gonna take me to try and juggle all these things? Or should I, am I just gonna like try and go forward, assuming that people who like the way that I write are gonna like the way that I write?

Cassie Newell (15:09.78)
Hmm.

Amy (15:20.559)
if it's just a little off their genre, they'll just ignore that and wait for me to come back with something that they do like.

Angela Haas (15:26.614)
Yeah, that's great. Actually, blows my mind in a way because I thought I just had to keep everything so separate. if you're really building super fans, mean, I guess if I'm a super fan of an author and their writing style, I wouldn't unsubscribe just because they came out with a new genre. Unless it was horror because I don't like scary things. Okay?

Cassie Newell (15:26.74)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (15:53.301)
you

Amy (15:53.651)
Yeah, I think as long as you're not doing steamy romance and Christian, like things that are way at the end of the spectrum.

Angela Haas (15:55.66)
I can't, but...

Angela Haas (16:01.269)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (16:02.025)
Well, I'm going to be the opposite because I started out with Young Adult Fantasy. So moving to romance that does have spice, I felt like I had to separate it. And they're two different names, but I kept the same email client and I do a segment. So I have my Young Adult Fantasy and of course they grow up. So I let them know about the pen name, but it's not something I'm emailing as constantly as I am.

Angela Haas (16:04.727)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (16:09.814)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't, yeah.

Amy (16:11.153)
Right. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (16:31.023)
romance that I'm building. So I just kept it in the same email client so that it's easier on me process-wise but yeah.

Amy (16:32.816)
Right.

Amy (16:38.759)
Yes, definitely. You definitely, definitely should do that. I have a lot of people that are like, well, I've got four different websites and nine different like mail things. I do half of it on MailChimp and half of it on something else. I'm like, no, no, no, no. You got to bring everything as tight as you possibly can. You can say things like you said, but find a mailing client that works for you that you can segment.

Cassie Newell (16:48.468)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (16:53.002)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (17:01.183)
So let's talk about mailing clients. Some people are unaware of the different types of mailing clients, too. What would be, let's say, your top three mail clients that you've worked with or know of?

Amy (17:15.673)
I really only have one. I don't like any third party things. I know they're very convenient for people when they're first starting out, so I totally get that. A lot of them are free when you're first starting out and your list isn't big, so I totally get that. But once you have a fair amount of followers, I think it's better to bring it in-house.

Cassie Newell (17:17.876)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (17:36.393)
out.

Amy (17:37.043)
I use ACY mailing, which is a program that works with WordPress and it works with Joomla, which I prefer Joomla, but it's less known.

Angela Haas (17:45.07)
Hmm.

Amy (17:48.229)
And what it does is everything it can segment, can keep different lists and you can time things to go out certain times, you can have auto responses, it does everything that the third parties do, but it doesn't charge you more the more people you get and it doesn't have a meltdown every time you try and import a new list that you gathered from somewhere. You don't have to worry about getting blocked by anyone except actual.

Cassie Newell (17:54.387)
Right.

Cassie Newell (18:04.724)
Hmm.

Amy (18:18.275)
actual people you're sending to. So it takes a lot of problems out of it. just it takes just a little little extra getting used to because maybe you're already used to MailChimp or whoever but once you've got it you're you're good to go.

Cassie Newell (18:32.565)
That's interesting. I've never really heard about someone bringing it in-house like that. That's really interesting to me. Yeah.

Angela Haas (18:39.078)
Yeah, that I think.

Amy (18:41.407)
Well, I had a web development firm, so it was obvious for me. But it's not hard. You just have someone like me set it up, and then you won't have any problem with it.

Cassie Newell (18:44.933)
there you go.

Cassie Newell (18:54.237)
Interesting.

Angela Haas (18:54.286)
Yeah, I think for if you're just starting out, done, love, you know, I love doing surveys. Okay. I'm always surveying on my platforms and asking people questions. And I think MailerLite is what people start with because of pricing and just ease of use and

how they, you know, their templates and how easy it is to kind of learn something. I started with MailChimp and sorry MailChimp, it wasn't right for me. It just didn't, as far as like templates and ease of use and cost, it just wasn't right for me. But then I made the mistake of going too far and I went to ConvertKit, which is now called Kit.

And there's certain things I love about it, but it's almost has too many features for someone like me. You know, it has too much that I'm not going to be using. And I think that's something for listeners who are just starting out really, you know, talk to people, but also read reviews and look at all the services. And honestly, if it's not something you're going to need or use.

go kind of that middle of the road. But I would say mailer light for most is what most people are using. I don't know what you're using, Cassie, if you can speak to that.

Cassie Newell (20:26.953)
Yeah, so interesting. I started with MailChimp as well. It was difficult for me. So I'm also the person who's working full time and all the things. So like Amy suggested, I wanted it all in one platform. I wanted a go-to. So then I went to Wix, which was hosting my website at the time. And they have a newsletter function that's all inclusive. So I was like, fabulous. And then

I kind of grew in all the genres and things and I did go to MailerLite. And what I liked about it was I moved my websites there too. So it's all encompassing for me, as Amy said, you know, when you end up with three different websites, you know, you kind of want to put it all in a container. So for me, MailerLite is my fiction. And then I use podia.com that hosts my nonfiction and my newsletter and everything.

So I kind of like wrapping my website and my mailer lists all together. They all have similar functions with auto responders and things like that, but I just found it if my brain is in one pathway, if it's fiction, if it's this genre, or it's a specific thing, going to one place is really helpful for me.

So that leads me to a question to you, Amy. When you're looking at tools and setting up your newsletter, do you recommend certain processes for automations and things like that?

Angela Haas (21:53.091)
Yeah.

Amy (22:10.873)
anything that you find that you wish you were going to do yourself, you know, like, I do have a thanks for signing up. Here's a free book, email. So that's always good to have if you happen to have a free book. I don't do the, I know some people have, onboarding patterns where, you know, after a month, they send them something and after three months they send them, I don't even want to wrap my head around it.

Cassie Newell (22:35.605)
Right.

Cassie Newell (22:41.204)
good, because I can't wrap my head around it either.

Amy (22:43.251)
Yeah, it's a lot. It's just it's just it's too much and I don't I mean you're sending them newsletters anyway so I don't really see why you have to say hey you've been with me for a month you know and remind them that maybe they want to unsubscribe you know it can work against you too. So, actually...

Cassie Newell (22:54.698)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (22:59.008)
Yeah. Yeah, because they may be just floating and they're like, you know what? Thanks for reminding me. I think I will unsubscribe.

Cassie Newell (23:00.048)
great point, it can work against you, right?

Amy (23:07.315)
When you were talking about surveys, you reminded me one of my favorite tricks for my newsletter is before every book, do a name the blank. So name the bar, the character, the store, the whatever happens to be going on in that.

book. So I usually I've gotten as many as entries for that and what I give away is 20 20 random winners get the new release which also works for me because a it doesn't cost a lot b what it does cost I get back anyway I gift them through Amazon so there's 20 sales

Cassie Newell (23:51.007)
that are verified. I love it.

Amy (23:52.273)
that are very dependent on count as you know towards my numbers during launch so maybe I'll get bumped up the Amazon algorithms for a second so it works.

Angela Haas (24:04.417)
Wait, okay. Tell me how that, okay, I've never done the gift through Amazon sale feature. How does that, no, how does that work? Because I always thought it was just me buying something for someone, but it does count as a sale. wow. Where have I been? Let me check the rock I've been under.

Cassie Newell (24:05.801)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (24:12.201)
you have it.

Amy (24:15.09)
It's just a button.

Amy (24:22.003)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (24:26.259)
Because what it does is it sends them a link. Yeah, yeah, I'm getting it. So it's a little button there that says, you know, buy for others, and then you hit that, and then it sends them a link, and then they can claim the book.

Cassie Newell (24:28.127)
So you're gifting it, right? Is that right, Amy? Yeah.

Angela Haas (24:32.44)
Thank you.

Angela Haas (24:40.15)
Okay, wow.

Cassie Newell (24:40.895)
So if I'm not mistaken, you just need their email address to gift it.

Amy (24:45.115)
Right, and they just entered my name, the whatever contest, so I have their email.

Cassie Newell (24:49.715)
Mm-hmm

Angela Haas (24:50.759)
Okay, and so that also gets around. Can you do that if you're in KU?

Cassie Newell (24:56.905)
Yeah, you can gift a book.

Angela Haas (24:57.546)
Okay, so that gets around like giving away free books because... Yeah. Okay.

Amy (25:03.527)
Well, you're giving it through Amazon, so Amazon doesn't mind. So it's a sale for Amazon. They're good with that.

Cassie Newell (25:06.899)
Yeah. And if they review it, they'll have the check mark because it's a verified purchase because you gifted it.

Angela Haas (25:14.574)
Oh my god. My whole life is gonna be different now. Like, this is crazy. Why? You know, it's amazing all the small features that, you know, obviously you two knew it, but I just didn't, you know, I didn't know that was a perk of-

Amy (25:31.539)
Oh, and here's a bonus. you send it, when you say you buy it for 20 people and then you can go and look and see who's claim there's and invariably people who maybe already bought it don't claim it. So you'll end up with like six spares or something like that that are just on there, never claimed. Amazon never tells you, Hey, you can get your money back for that. They just say you bought it and too bad it's just going to die here. But what I do is then with my own giveaways on

AXP, you guys know when you are in a giveaway, you give away three books at the end to the winners. I use those spares as giveaways later on because I can revoke them from who they went to originally if they haven't claimed them after a certain amount of time. So I revoke it and then resend it to a new person.

Cassie Newell (26:14.338)
smart.

Cassie Newell (26:22.687)
that's smart. love that. Have you, I have a question. Have you done that with physical items? Cause I remember buying Kindles as giveaways and gift cards. And I'm wondering, have you done that to where you can send them the physical item through Amazon so that you're not having to deal with the shipping and everything yourself independently?

Angela Haas (26:23.169)
Wow. Yeah.

Amy (26:44.905)
yeah, if anytime I have to give away anything, hold on, made me remember something else I was gonna say.

you if you're going to give away something like a Kindle on your site sometimes it's better. happen to do a Kindle this time for my Facebook ad because I just wanted to see you know like if it was the most magnificent gift how many people will this ad get me so I could test it but I like more giving away books so I know I'm getting actual readers and not people who just want to resell a Kindle so you can actually just tell people that they'll get

Cassie Newell (27:06.197)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (27:21.671)
books up to $50 worth of books and tell them to pick the books that they want and then you drop ship them to them through Amazon. If they're paperback or if they're not paperback, you just, you know, gift them the ebooks. But if they're, if they're paperback to the way that Amazon works, like you get points when you hard copies. so then since I'm telling them to tell me what books they want instead of giving them money, and then I'm sending them the books, I'm getting the points, which helped me

Cassie Newell (27:28.539)
Ooh, I love that too.

Amy (27:51.645)
pay from our books to send to people.

Cassie Newell (27:53.695)
That's so smart. I love that.

Angela Haas (27:54.76)
Wow. my gosh, all these little gems. I'm just soaking all of this up because sometimes I always feel like I've got to do it, you know, the hard way. Like by getting one of the paperbacks I bought and putting it together. Although it does allow you to sign it if you send it, but I love that you can do the quick gift for Ebeck and just, yeah, and we could

Amy (28:00.028)
you

Cassie Newell (28:08.457)
Yeah.

Amy (28:20.327)
Yeah. The little ego glow that you get from signing a book goes away very quickly when you realize you can just drop ship it and you don't have to pack it up and take it to the post office or whatever.

Cassie Newell (28:20.981)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (28:28.15)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, the ease of that. And then we could get our author friends together and do a little book gift away with all of our, you know, friends in the same genre too. So yeah, that's a great idea. That's a really good idea. Yeah, those are the things that people that you just don't read about. And that's why I love

Cassie Newell (28:32.873)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (28:40.927)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (28:50.611)
I love it.

Angela Haas (28:58.19)
having guests on this podcast that can speak to it because you know it's hard to find this information when you're just you know googling what do I do basically as a new author I published a book now what you know

Amy (29:12.816)
This way.

The latest thing I added to Authors XP is just consulting time with me because there's all these little things that people will just send me emails, authors will, and say, what do I do about, how come? And I'll be like, gosh, I know all the answers for that. I could tell them, but if I'm writing emails to people all day long answering free questions, I don't have time to do anything else. So I still try and be as helpful as I can, but I'll say, it sounds like you've got a lot of things. You you could just basically buy an hour with me and just

Angela Haas (29:36.365)
Yeah.

Amy (29:45.423)
hit me with anything and if it's not at the top of your head, the way I did it was that basically an hour's an hour. So if you think of three things now and it takes me 10 minutes to answer you, come back a week, a month, a year later when something really hits you and you still have time.

Cassie Newell (30:04.542)
Right.

Angela Haas (30:04.706)
Wow, that's great. Okay, we'll put all that information about how people can find you in the show notes. yeah, I think that that's really valuable. And I think when I was first starting out, you just feel like you're just on a boat paddling to a shore, and then your oar just falls into the ocean. And it's so nice.

Cassie Newell (30:27.848)
you

Angela Haas (30:32.266)
now that there are services like yours that really help authors navigate a little bit better. So thank you for all you do for authors. So what I mean, I guess that's my question. Why did you want to do this to help authors? Why, what motivates you to give back to others?

Amy (30:40.082)
You don't have to.

Amy (30:52.797)
This is my true love. was a writer to start off with, and then I just stopped writing because it's hard to make money as a writer, especially back in the day before there was Kindles and whatnot. So that's when I started the web development company. And I mean, it was fun. It was still creative and whatnot, but it's not my jam. So I did fine at it, and I still enjoy doing the occasional website, but I really wanted to get back to writing.

I literally think about marketing books 24-7 now, my own and other people, and I love it.

Angela Haas (31:31.822)
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, tell us real quick, since we're all romance writers, you have a new romance out. What was that like? I mean, you've you started with rom-coms, but then you went to Cozy Mystery. And I love what you do on the covers because your Cozy Mystery covers are all I mean, you just know you're you know, it's you.

Cassie Newell (31:32.533)
I love that.

Amy (31:40.229)
yep.

Angela Haas (32:00.342)
because of the branding and because of your covers because well I there was one with a bulldog on it and I just was like obviously drawn to that but maybe tell us you know how you came up with sort of your branding for the pineapple mysteries but also why you wanted to switch back to your rom-com

Cassie Newell (32:07.244)
you

Amy (32:08.787)
Thank

Amy (32:21.687)
I just kind of bored them basically. hadn't, ROM comms were kind of having a resurgence and that's, it's definitely my wheelhouse because of the comm part. So I was like, I might as well just write another one and see how that goes. But like you ladies were already talking about, it's tough because, know, I've got this.

Angela Haas (32:24.995)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (32:28.974)
Mm-hmm.

Amy (32:42.257)
big fan base for my mysteries and then, you know, they don't all transfer every time. Like my thrillers got about, you know, 60 % of my cozy people to go for them. But, you know, there's 30 I didn't get. And then the rom-coms, it did pretty well, but not as well as as Pineapple does. So it does feel like you're taking a step back every time you start a new genre. It's kind of heartbreaking for a second, but.

Cassie Newell (33:07.157)
Tell me.

Angela Haas (33:10.23)
Yeah, Cassie, how do you feel about starting your new genre?

Cassie Newell (33:14.643)
Yeah, yeah, fellow romcom over here. But I also was diving into short romance and making a go at that at the same time. think it's energizing to some expectation because the people who find you are brand new and they're excited and they're emailing you and you have the time as you're trying to build. And I think

that's awesome, but at the same time, you're kind of pulling your hair out because you're starting from scratch. And like the things I know to do from previous years, because I've been published for a while, I tend to forget. You know, it's like you having to restart your engine a little bit and but at the same time, it's new fuel because things have changed from 2016. You know, so it's it's

It's one of those things too. So I find, I don't know, just trying to stay current in the industry with new software, new processes, new programs, to try to keep things as simple as possible for myself has been the key.

Angela Haas (34:24.87)
Yeah.

Amy (34:25.671)
Yeah, it was just for me, was the reason I went was because of the resurgence of rom-coms. And I just finished the 24th pineapple and you it gets a little, you want them to be good every time. You don't want people to get bored of them, but you yourself can get a little bored of the same thing.

Cassie Newell (34:30.069)
Mm.

Cassie Newell (34:35.871)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (34:44.405)
Creative energy, yeah, feed it.

Angela Haas (34:45.581)
Wow. 24. So what's next for you then? Are you going to do a 25th pineapple?

Amy (34:47.079)
Yeah.

Amy (34:52.367)
I'm sure I can't, I can't stop the pineapples, but, right now I'm working on a more of a, a harder core thriller. It's a lot, it's a lot like my Sheen the Queen series. you know, strong female lead, thrilling things happening, but it's sort of like a female Dexter sort of a feel. It's, I love it. I'm having so much fun right now.

Cassie Newell (35:10.943)
Ooh. I know, me too. I was like, that's some good marketing right out the bat.

Angela Haas (35:11.039)
Ooh, I just got chills. Yeah, yeah, wow.

Amy (35:21.939)
Yeah, I'm really excited about it. But I'm doing that now. And actually that one I'm going to pitch to agents just to see if I can get maybe become an Amazon book so they can do my marketing for me for that. But if it doesn't work out, I'm perfectly happy to turn it into a new series.

Angela Haas (35:40.514)
Because, and have you had an agent this whole time? Are you completely self-published or have you been?

Amy (35:47.921)
I'm completely self-published. had a publisher for a non-fiction I did like back in 2017, not 2017. That was like, it was like 2000 and actually it was like 1997. That's how long ago that was. I'm losing track of time a little bit here. But no, no, it's always been me.

Angela Haas (35:49.826)
Wow.

Angela Haas (36:01.038)
wow, that's a seven. One of the seven years.

Angela Haas (36:11.298)
That's amazing. That's so incredible. Well, I really appreciate your time today. Unless Cassie, do you have any more questions or Amy, if you have any more hidden nuggets of advice for us starving authors out here. Okay.

Cassie Newell (36:20.243)
Now I

Amy (36:25.651)
No, mean, if, no, not really. If you're going to get an agent, don't just make sure you try and get with a big publisher. Cause I get a lot of sad stories about people who go with hybrid publishers or whatnot. And basically all the person does is throw them up on Amazon and then ask them to market their own book, which you could have done yourself in five minutes. Only now you're losing 20 % or whatever. So be careful with that, but.

Angela Haas (36:46.307)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (36:49.331)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (36:50.669)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (36:52.723)
Yeah, Angela and I have talked about that before. I've been pretty vocal for myself. was like, once you have the experience of self-publishing, it's like you need to be either a pretty high mid-tier publisher or a high-tier publisher because I can do it myself otherwise.

Amy (37:08.903)
Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah, unless they have some market that you can't get into like Amazon does or like a big, big publisher does, there's just really no point. You can do a better job yourself.

Angela Haas (37:11.785)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (37:22.077)
Yeah, agreed.

Angela Haas (37:22.412)
Yeah, see, the power is in you. That's the lesson. Okay, it's time for our table topic. Let's see.

Cassie Newell (37:26.197)
powers in you.

Amy (37:26.407)
You can do it!

Angela Haas (37:38.51)
No, I don't like that. my goodness. Okay, this is good. That was... Well, the one question was, where should the line be drawn between church and state? Let's not. It's too early to dive into that for me. So let's go with, what's your biggest pet peeve? That's a better one.

Amy (37:41.051)
My stomach doesn't twist it.

you

Amy (37:59.987)
you

Cassie Newell (38:00.501)
Angela Haas (38:02.229)
I know it.

Amy (38:02.483)
under any particular topic or just in general?

Angela Haas (38:06.998)
You know, what bothers you? Something that just in life in general, what's your biggest pet peeve?

Amy (38:13.389)
jeez. There's so many. I'm actually, I'm pretty chill. So like, there's a million little things that bother me probably, but nothing that that makes me go crazy except.

Cassie Newell (38:19.239)
I know, right?

Angela Haas (38:32.184)
What's a minor irritation?

Amy (38:32.349)
you know what? biggest peeve, I just thought of it. My biggest peeve right now is this one FedEx driver who delivers the boxes and puts it in front of my garage instead of walking it to my door. Makes me absolutely livid.

Cassie Newell (38:43.313)
or.

Wait, how big are your packages?

Angela Haas (38:46.616)
because you...

Amy (38:49.267)
Well, some of them are dog food, which is pretty big. But the problem is the way that our houses are, the doors kind of set back in the garages out front. So when they put the package out front, I mean, you can pull out of your garage and roll over it and not even know it was ever there. Or it can rain or it could be there for days if you if you're not constantly walking to the front of your house and turning around and looking at it. So yeah, that bothers me.

Angela Haas (39:11.116)
Yeah. Cassing. Yeah, that's valid. That's valid.

Amy (39:12.583)
get unreasonably angry about it.

Amy (39:17.619)
you

Cassie Newell (39:18.069)
So my biggest pet peeve is people that don't follow through.

Angela Haas (39:23.852)
bye.

Cassie Newell (39:25.021)
Yeah, that drives me baddie. That includes my children.

Amy (39:30.725)
You

Angela Haas (39:30.934)
Cassie Newell (39:32.959)
Like if you're gonna say you're gonna do something under a certain timeline, like just tell me if you can't make it or can't do it. I mean, I'm very easygoing as well, but like when it gets to that time or that date and there's nada and then you tell me like, no, I'm like, seriously? So either I've got to do it or somebody, know, like I just.

Angela Haas (39:52.942)
you

Cassie Newell (39:57.459)
And it's funny because my husband used to say my biggest irritation was people who could make decisions, meaning people who can't land the plane. That used to be my number one go-to with people I work with, because I'm in a very decision-making industry in my day job and I have high command. So decision-making is not a problem for me.

Angela Haas (40:06.139)
Right.

Amy (40:22.451)
Thank

Cassie Newell (40:22.661)
If I know where I'm going, or if I need to take a day, I will tell you like I need a couple of days to think about this. people who aren't communicating that and say they'll do something but they don't like, you just start to get lower and lower on my list of availability for me to count on you. You know what I mean? Like that's my biggest irritation.

Angela Haas (40:34.446)
gosh. Mine is not very deep, but it's something that... How do I talk about it? It just... I cannot stand when people don't return their shopping carts to the Corral. I... I'm like out there like... Seriously?

Amy (40:49.592)
Not as deep as the FedEx guy.

Amy (41:00.691)
Thank

Angela Haas (41:04.59)
And then I mean, people leave them in parking spaces and just like, or partially like in the corner of a parking space, you can't quite pull in. So I just don't understand. Like, I just really speak that tells me a lot about your character. If you're not willing to do that, obviously, unless you're like, okay, maybe you have a physical disability. I'm not counting on that, but like,

Cassie Newell (41:13.909)
Hmm.

Cassie Newell (41:24.97)
Yeah.

Amy (41:30.707)
you

Angela Haas (41:30.848)
If you're able to walk it like two feet over here, why don't you do that? Tied with the people who you're merging onto the highway and they accelerate so you cannot merge and then they go slower once you're on. Who are these people and who hurt you? That's what I wanna know. Like why don't you want people to get on the highway? know, like.

Cassie Newell (41:50.005)
yeah, the other irritation I have, especially moving back from Germany, is people that are in the fast lane that decide they need to control that fast lane and go slower so nobody can get around them. I'm like, get the hell over, get out of the fast lane. Drives me nuts.

Angela Haas (42:06.316)
Yeah. It just, I really want to sit down with these people and be like, let's talk about your childhood because something happened because I don't understand. Anyway, those are the things that bother me. I want to know. Well, thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you listen to the podcast and helps us with availability.

Cassie Newell (42:17.897)
You're too kind. I'm like, I don't care. Just put the damn card up.

Amy (42:22.611)
you

Angela Haas (42:36.034)
Thank you to our very special guest, Amy Van Sant, and we were gonna put every place you can find her and use her wonderful services in the show notes. Next week, new month. Are you ready? We're gonna have a craft fair, so to speak, where we're gonna have a month-long deep dive into all things craft. So until then, keep writing, keep doing. See you soon.

Amy (43:04.755)
Bye.