Episode 34: The Secrets to Growing Your Author Business with Sacha Black

Cassie Newell (00:17)
Welcome to episode 34. I'm Cassie Newell and I'm here with my co-host Angela Haas. And this month we're talking about growing your author business. This episode, we're talking to the amazing Sacha Black. I'm so excited that you're here, Sacha. Welcome to the show. Just to give a little introduction to who you are.
Sacha Black (00:35)
Thank you for having me. ⁓
Cassie Newell (00:39)
Sacha writes
under the pen name Ruby Rowe and writes lesbian fantasy romance. She loves a bit of magic with her smut and will read anything as long as the characters get down and dirty. When she isn't writing, she's beasting herself at the gym or wandering the world on her next adventure. She also writes nonfiction for writers as Sacha Black. She lives in England with her wife, son, and her two devious ragdoll cats.
Angela Haas (00:49)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (01:07)
Welcome to the show, Sacha. Thank you for joining us.
Angela Haas (01:09)
Welcome.
Sacha Black (01:11)
Thank you for having me.
Cassie Newell (01:12)
we're talking all about growing businesses, right? And you've had an amazing two years really in growing your business. I just wanted to start off with maybe telling ⁓ our listeners a little bit about how that all got started in that journey.
Sacha Black (01:33)
started this specific pen name. Okay. So I was writing as Sacha Black, writing lots of nonfiction, kind of sharing all the lessons that I was learning, doing lots of freelance. And I realized that everything was feeling a little bit too much like a job. I quit my day job in order to create a business that felt like a business rather than just creating another job for myself. And I felt at that point that I was kind of
Cassie Newell (01:36)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (01:38)
I'm going go ahead and it off.
Sacha Black (02:03)
in a job. And at the same
time I stumbled across a young adult sapphic book and I got really emotional and I was like, my god, is this what everybody feels when they read? And then Cookie Monster Sacha just started devouring young adult sapphic books and then I stumbled across a spicy adult sapphic romance.
Angela Haas (02:09)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (02:33)
and it was like extra on the spice and it just changed everything and I was like, what is this? And like, how have I not read this before? And it was like opening Pandora's box and I just couldn't unsee what I'd seen. And so all of this was happening at the same time. And I just kind of thought that if I was going to take a major risk essentially with
spending time writing fiction that I had no idea if it was gonna sell and not write another non-fiction book immediately, which was selling, then I was gonna do something that I was really deeply passionate about and something that was like the truest thing that I could write. So I did and then I released it in 2023, February 2023 and then...
I started doing TikTok in November, I went viral in December and then it just kept climbing. So yeah, what year is it? 2025. So we're just over two years basically. Yeah. So that's kind of like how it started. And I think, I think literally I'm going to go from zero to a million in three years. So.
Angela Haas (03:40)
you
Cassie Newell (03:42)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (03:53)
I'm pretty sure that that's what's gonna happen. We're on track to do it this year, so I think that is what's gonna happen.
Cassie Newell (03:54)
That's amazing.
Angela Haas (04:00)
That's amazing. I think I remember though, that moment that, I mean, we've been watching this unfold in your rebel authors group, but which is sadly not really there anymore. But I kind of remember the moment when you posted something in the group and it was like this unhinged story. was either like,
Cassie Newell (04:00)
Wow.
Angela Haas (04:25)
the man that has sex with like two alien women at the same time and then there's like, there's a love child or was it the doorknob shifter romance? And it was like blowing up everywhere and getting crazy reviews and you're just like, you know, write whatever you want folks. Like just, you know what? Because I'm over here like.
Cassie Newell (04:30)
Doorknob one, yeah.
Angela Haas (04:50)
really overthinking every detail about is this going to appeal to people? No, you know what? I'm writing what I want to, still wanting to be commercial, but what does it feel like now to just, you're just writing what you want, whatever you want. What does that feel like?
Sacha Black (05:06)
So let me caveat that with I still suffer with trying to please readers. Like that doesn't go away and I do think like that is a battle that even though arguably I could probably write anything and do okay because I have built up an audience, I still want to deliver something that readers want. So like I...
Angela Haas (05:13)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Sacha Black (05:33)
And definitely with this latest release, it was the hardest book I've ever written because I was writing it in public. I made a lot of mistakes with announcing what I was writing before I'd finished it. But I'm never doing that again. I'm never telling anybody what I'm writing until it's written because the pressure that you have and the amount of opinions that people have on what you're writing. I really hope it's this. And then I'm like, shit, well, I'm not doing that. So like now.
Cassie Newell (05:40)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (06:00)
Right,
Cassie Newell (06:00)
Yeah,
Angela Haas (06:00)
yeah.
Sacha Black (06:00)
now people aren't gonna like it. sorry
Cassie Newell (06:01)
that's tough.
Sacha Black (06:02)
am I allowed to say naughty words? Okay good cool cool cool cool. Yeah and it's like you know the bigger your platform grows the more readers there are the more opinions you have to block out and so that is probably like the biggest lesson that I've learned is not to tell anybody what I'm working on until the draft is done and then I can't change it you know so that is
Angela Haas (06:04)
Yes. Yes.
Cassie Newell (06:05)
Yes.
Hmm.
Sacha Black (06:27)
Basically, the only thing I'm to be talking about is the sequel to this book and actually I'm going to be working on other things as well because I'm trying to like expand my publishing timeline and have more time in my schedule. But I mean, how does it feel? Like pretty fucking good.
Cassie Newell (06:44)
Yeah, it does, imagine.
Angela Haas (06:44)
Yeah! How about?
Sacha Black (06:46)
Yeah, like,
broadly speaking, pretty amazing, you know, like it is the dream and I really genuinely every day. Okay, so this is the story. December, 2023. I am a lover of coffee. So even though, so in February, 2023, on the 10th, I released the game of Hearts and Heists
Cassie Newell (06:51)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (07:14)
I was making, before I released any Ruby books, was probably making two and a half thousand British pounds on a good month. On a really good month, I might tip three thousand. But that didn't really leave anything at the end of the month. Kids are expensive, you know, like you've got a mortgage. Like there wasn't really, I wasn't really able to save any money. There wasn't really anything left over. And even though I released
Angela Haas (07:31)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (07:42)
Hearts and Heists and that alone did a couple of grand on its own, that one book in that first month. Because I hadn't been releasing Sacha Black books, my income had had gone down. So it only came back up to where it was. you know, February, March, April, May, June, July, I think I released the last one in that book in December. And I was still only really making
Yes, I remember that was it because I was in Vegas giving the keynote and I was so close to hitting 3000 on Amazon alone, which would have been like a personal best for me. And I did it by the skin of my teeth, but I still remember it was Christmas and my son's birthday is at the end of November. And I really, really wanted an espresso.
Angela Haas (08:13)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (08:34)
⁓ advent calendar. I'm like obsessed with advent calendars and I really want it and it £37 and I couldn't afford it and I just I just couldn't justify it. I didn't have the money. If I brought that for myself I wouldn't have been able to buy something for my son so I didn't do it and I really thought about asking for it as my Christmas present and I was like but if I do that then everybody else would be opening stuff for Christmas Day and I won't and I was like okay I'm just not gonna do it and that month
Angela Haas (08:34)
⁓
Sacha Black (09:03)
I went viral and I earned six grand on Amazon. So I went from just barely scraping three in November to doubling in December. And then January was eight and by April it was 17, I think. And then it just kept going and going and going. But that is what I hold onto. That feeling of wanting something that seems small and insignificant was actually really meaningful to me.
Cassie Newell (09:12)
That's amazing.
Sacha Black (09:31)
and like I still remember the following Christmas last year being able to buy that and every single day I had a moment of gratitude being able to drink that cup of coffee and I know this is like such a trivial story but like I don't know how I just don't know how else to explain the level of gratitude and like joy that this journey has created for me. Coffee!
Angela Haas (09:38)
and
No, it's not. It's not.
Cassie Newell (09:46)
but it's not.
Angela Haas (09:52)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (09:57)
Yeah, I love that.
Angela Haas (09:57)
What?
Cassie Newell (09:59)
mean, that really talks about, too, the growth of your audience, right? And before then, you've already built an incredibly loyal audience through your podcast and the Rebel Author community. One thing I wanted to ask you is, what's your advice for authors trying to cultivate that same kind of long-term reader engagement?
Is there a special sauce?
Sacha Black (10:28)
I think there's a few things. The first thing is like, do you know what you stand for?
Cassie Newell (10:35)
Mm.
Sacha Black (10:36)
be like some big woo-woo branding, know, yeah like all of that stuff helps but it's like what meaning or emotion or value do you stand for that people can connect with, right? So in the Rebel Author for me it was all about misfits, right? We, none of us felt like we belonged and so like I opened my arms and told you all that you belong to me, like we belong together.
Angela Haas (10:39)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (10:51)
Mm.
Sacha Black (11:04)
we belong to
each other, we are there for each other because we don't belong anywhere else. Like that was what made us special. With the Ruby stuff, it is very much, I think, about giving them something that they haven't had, right? Like there was no adult romantasy that was spicy. know, it could, arguably it could be about sexual empowerment for the queer community.
Cassie Newell (11:10)
Right.
Angela Haas (11:22)
Right.
Sacha Black (11:34)
It could be about levelling the playing field and the fact that, you know, there's tons of straight romance to do with Spice, tons of dark romance for straight people, but there's nothing for queer people. that's part of it. And I think the other part is the type of prose, which sounds ridiculous, but I get a lot of people with dyslexia and ADHD telling me that my books are the first books they've ever been able to sit down and read.
Cassie Newell (11:44)
Sure.
Sacha Black (12:04)
And I think it, I think, I don't know what that is, but it makes, it makes it very accessible to people. So, yeah, and there are certain things that I stand for. So I stand for fast burn spice, slow burn emotion. And yeah, and that is an accessible fantasy. That's the other thing. So I get a lot of people telling me, I've never.
Angela Haas (12:11)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (12:22)
I love that.
Sacha Black (12:31)
really liked fantasy, but I could really get into yours and I'm like, yeah, because I don't write epic fantasy. I write really, you know, easy to understand, accessible fantasy. ⁓ And I suppose I also write fantasy in the spice as well because it's like that thing, you know, we want the obsessive girlfriend as book girlfriend, just like all of the straight women want the obsessive would burn the world down for you boyfriend, right? And nobody was doing that. So...
Angela Haas (12:37)
Right.
Okay.
Cassie Newell (12:55)
Yep.
Sacha Black (13:00)
Yeah, I guess those are the kinds of things that I do. So in terms of advice for writers, what do you stand for? What are the values? What are the emotions that you're going to be giving to readers? I give fast-burn spices, they're getting their smuts right away, but slow-burn
emotions, so I grab them and I hook them and I do not give them the release that they want until the end. And so being able to identify that means that you can do that consistently in all of your books.
Cassie Newell (13:24)
Right.
Sacha Black (13:30)
that's where the branding comes in right because then people know what they are coming to you for they know it's really interesting because I was being interviewed yesterday and she was like what have you done differently in this book and I'm like no no no you don't understand you don't understand like it's the same but different right like so the the dressing is different the characters are different but you are gonna hate me at the end with the cliffhanger and you are still gonna come back for more because you have to know what happened so it's like you have to know
Angela Haas (13:47)
Right.
Cassie Newell (13:48)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (14:01)
And so I think that building a readership is about understanding what you stand for, what the emotions are that you're giving to readers, then understand, like, watching them, like, what do they react to? What are they obsessive with? What is it that makes them gag? Like, what is it that they keep mentioning and then you do that over and over again? Yeah, I don't know if that is tangible enough, like...
Cassie Newell (14:16)
Yeah.
No, that's great.
Angela Haas (14:28)
Yeah,
yeah, that makes sense. that I love your fantasy and I didn't. Well, I knew why, but like there was something else about it that was easier for me to read. And it is that you have built, you have world building and you've created your own universe. But the world building isn't what came first because I'm reading fantasy, a very popular romantasy right now.
Cassie Newell (14:47)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (14:58)
Tradpup author and I'm bored to death because ⁓ I can't say who it is because it's like one of the most popular ones out there but like it's all the world. There's 50 different characters right away that I have to keep track of and the lands and this land has these rules and this land has these rules and this one and that before we've even like I don't even know if I care about the characters yet.
and I'm in this world already. And it's not that it isn't masterfully done, and it just isn't my type of fantasy. I love the fantasy genre, but that's why I liked yours, because it was easier for me to read. I just got attached to the characters right away. And I didn't lose myself into trying to keep track of the world they were in. It was still beautiful, but it wasn't the main thing.
Cassie Newell (15:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Angela Haas (15:54)
And I think that is also something you've hit on because it just like, I felt like this, other one, it was like Lord of the Rings on steroids. And I was just like, oh my God, I don't have time. Like I can't, you know? And that, there is, there totally is. It's not, and that's why I said, that's just not for me. Obviously it's successful. I just, I really want the characters more than anything. I need to attach to them immediately.
Sacha Black (16:07)
There's a place for that though, right? Like there is a place for that.
Angela Haas (16:24)
or put the book down. And that's what you do masterfully because I was like, ⁓ okay. ⁓
Cassie Newell (16:29)
And Angela, you do it really
well as also your characters shine on the page because they're very individualistic too, I think. And I find I like writing fast too. ⁓ And I find it really interesting because in sci-fi, sometimes I like to read sci-fi and watch sci-fi, but I only like it as a backdrop. Only as a backdrop. I feel that way in fantasy. I have to be in the mood for the other. ⁓
Angela Haas (16:36)
⁓ thank you.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (16:58)
You know, my moods change too to what I read, but ⁓ yeah, I totally get that.
Sacha Black (17:04)
So I have two things to say about that. One is about backdrop and it's something that I learned about myself. And the other one comes back to knowing what you're good at when you write. Like, and actually I suppose these are all interconnected. So everybody drink, but CliftonStrength. I very much write
Angela Haas (17:21)
Yes.
Sacha Black (17:24)
to my CliftonStrength, right? So I write fast pace because I have Activator
Cassie Newell (17:25)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (17:26)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (17:30)
I am always going to write fast. I am incapable of writing a slow book. And I have learned the hard way not to try and write a slow book. So dark academia is by its nature slow because it is sweeping. Yeah, it's sweeping. is, you know, there's lots of kind of intellectual and thought and, you know, there's not huge amounts of action.
Angela Haas (17:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (17:46)
Well, that's
Sacha Black (18:00)
pure yellow, I write high stakes, high conflict, high action, fast pace. Like what the fuck was I thinking trying to Dark Academia? And I was like, why am
I in a massive reading sub? Why have I been in a reading sub for a fucking year? Well, because you've been trying to read Dark Academia, which thematically I love because obsession, moral decay, both like right up my street. But I like Dark Academia as setting and as dressing.
Cassie Newell (18:21)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (18:30)
not as the genre. Yeah, so
Cassie Newell (18:31)
the backdrop.
Angela Haas (18:33)
Yes.
Sacha Black (18:33)
I really struggled to read dark academia books and it's because they were so slow. And of course ⁓ I fought myself all the way through architecture because it was supposed to be dark academia. It isn't, it is dark academia dressing is what it is. And knowing that and knowing how I've ended the book, I've ended the book in order to write towards my strengths in book two.
Cassie Newell (18:58)
nice.
Sacha Black (18:59)
Yeah, and so I think that is something when you understand how your strengths look on the page, you are able to lean into that and then lean into your zone of genius. And I think that is really important. Like I just need to stop trying to write literary fiction or anything else like that. That's not what I do. And it's not what I do well. So yeah.
Angela Haas (19:17)
Right.
Cassie Newell (19:19)
Yeah. And
you're talking to two high yellows too.
Angela Haas (19:24)
Yeah, number one strategic and I really have to work hard at layering the emotion in and that's what my editors are like. This scene is great, but their mother died. I feel like she should cry or something. And I was like, ⁓ okay. Yeah, I can, the tracks. Yeah, let's see. I'll just, she was sad. She got sad. Okay. And then the firefight and it like, you know, like I just get so like putting that puzzle together input.
Sacha Black (19:32)
Yep.
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (19:42)
That's right.
Angela Haas (19:54)
is five, activators four, and individualization two. So I like writing fast, but I like reading fast too. ⁓ Because I want to turn the page and just devour a book. And I've been in a reading slump too. But I think leaning into those strengths so that, and understanding your personality for those listeners who may not know what Clifton strengths are or want to take that test, but like understanding what you're good at and not fighting it. I'm not good at
Sacha Black (20:01)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (20:14)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (20:23)
like world building. When I wrote the sci-fi, I just wanted to put characters in space. I was like, I'll just make up a planet and they're just there for a while, but they're really just, you know, it's about the superheroes. But.
Sacha Black (20:37)
You should DNS that book.
not even kidding like you should seriously DNF it because that is what has enabled me to get back reading. Like I went on holiday and I just read 17 books in two weeks because I actually allowed myself to read what I actually love. You know and now because of Cassie I'm reading like a 550 page book and I've nearly finished it in two days. Like it's just because I'm reading what I actually love it is the best book ever but but I'm reading... ⁓
Cassie Newell (20:47)
reading the fantasy. Yeah.
Angela Haas (20:47)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (21:03)
But it's the best butt.
Angela Haas (21:06)
What book is that? What book is that?
Cassie Newell (21:10)
Well, it's a series by J.R. Ward. Well, because you don't like the smutty smut, Angela, and it's very smutty. We'll talk after. I will get you hooked, and we'll talk after.
Angela Haas (21:11)
No one told me. Okay.
into some of it. Cheers! Okay.
Sacha Black (21:21)
Yeah
But you have to give yourself
Angela Haas (21:28)
As long as it's...
Sacha Black (21:29)
permission to read what you really love and just get rid of what you don't.
Cassie Newell (21:31)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (21:31)
Yeah.
Okay, I was just forcing it. Because sometimes I just want to be like, well, this is like the most popular thing right now. Maybe I can learn something I should know what this is about. And then some of it's just like, it's just not for me. It's not for me. And that's okay.
Cassie Newell (21:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think.
Sacha Black (21:46)
You
can only learn something if you really enjoy it. Because if you don't enjoy it, what are you trying to learn?
Angela Haas (21:50)
This show.
Cassie Newell (21:50)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (21:53)
Right, my eyeballs are bleeding and I was like, must finish chapter 42. And I just couldn't. So you're right. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (21:59)
I know, and you get to some
points where you're like, I just need to finish it because I'm, I've already put in so much time. I don't know. I'm at this stage in my life where I'm like, Nope, not anymore. Not anymore. I just am like, Nope. Yeah.
Angela Haas (22:05)
Great.
Sacha Black (22:07)
costs. Yeah.
Angela Haas (22:08)
⁓ Don't have time for that. So
I have a question because I think there's listeners that are going to be like, okay, how did you do that? You know, as far as like mastering TikTok and what if TikTok isn't for you like me? The thing I struggle with is like TikTok works best.
and your videos are genius, it's you talking about your book. It's you showing your book. It's you. And people can also attach to you. I don't like videos of myself. just not that, I just not, it's not my style. I don't know what to say or how to be. And I just don't feel natural doing that. Or I can talk like this, but not what you do. And then I'm like, well, am I ever going to make it if I can't cross that plane? You know, I don't know.
It's, that's kind of hard.
Sacha Black (23:09)
There are a million different authors making money in a million different
Angela Haas (23:16)
Right.
Sacha Black (23:17)
think you really have to... First of all, what is your goal? Are you trying to make a million dollars a year? First of all, is that your goal? If that's not your goal, is it actually your goal? It is actually your goal. Is that your goal?
Angela Haas (23:26)
Sure. Yes. Just like, well. Okay.
I'd settle with half, but that's, yes, I need to make money. It is, this is not my hobby. This is, I need to make money.
Sacha Black (23:36)
Okay, Then
tough conversation, okay? It doesn't matter how you get visibility, but you do need it. So you have to make a tough decision. It doesn't have to be social media, but if it's not social media, it probably has to be advertising. If it's not advertising,
Angela Haas (23:42)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Sacha Black (24:04)
you need to go and do some work and have a look in the realm of authors to see how authors are finding traffic because this is a game of traffic. Traffic is visibility and you you can go to events and you can hand sell books but you are not going to hand sell £500,000 worth of books at book events. You're not. You might sell
Angela Haas (24:29)
Right. Right.
Sacha Black (24:32)
thousand in a day but you can't do 500 events in 365 days you just can't. So you have you have a tough choice like you can either do social media or you can do advertising or you can find something else. Now on social media you don't always have to have to have to have your face there are lots of different ways you can use social media doesn't have to be face to camera but you do have to face the fact
Angela Haas (24:36)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (25:00)
that if you want to make half a million dollars a year, you have to reach readers. So what way are you comfortable with doing that? Nobody can tell you it has to be based to camera because also if you are awkward on camera, that's going to show and either you make awkward your thing and make that a part of your brand or you don't do it.
Angela Haas (25:07)
Mm-hmm.
Right. It's naturally woven in to my brand, awkwardness. It's always there. So I guess I could capitalize on it. ⁓
Cassie Newell (25:24)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (25:33)
Yeah, you could. You could lean all the way in and be extra
awkward on camera and then people will connect with that authenticity. Right. But like, ultimately you have to choose your poison. Which poison are you more comfortable with? Are you analytical? Do you like tweaking ads? Do you like data? are you, could you lean more into your, your yellow strengths and be on camera? Or if you don't want to be on camera.
Cassie Newell (25:42)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (25:42)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (26:00)
go and do some research and look at how authors who aren't using their face are driving traffic. you know, Facebook ads are different to Amazon ads. Personally, I've actually turned off all my Amazon ads. I'm not using, I'm actually not using any advertising at all up until now. I'm only using social media, but I do use Instagram and TikTok equally.
Angela Haas (26:16)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sacha Black (26:23)
But I also recognize that isn't for everybody and there are, I know a ton of seven-figure authors not using social media. So I don't think it is the only way. At the moment, me personally, I don't know too many other ways other than advertising or social media, but that might just be because I have a limited capacity at the moment for doing research and finding out what other people are doing in the community. I am sure there are other people.
Angela Haas (26:42)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (26:53)
generating traffic in other ways, but I'm not an expert on that.
Cassie Newell (26:57)
Yeah, I'm, I want to talk about how you've grown to having your own bookstore. Like that often means, you know, investment, right? Whether like you talked about whether it's marketing and advertising, or outsourcing, even when you when you think about those activities. And I know, I think it started off with Kickstarter, but correct me if I'm wrong. ⁓ But how did you decide, like, at that
Angela Haas (27:00)
Yeah, that's great.
Sacha Black (27:08)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (27:25)
point where you're growing so much and you're utilizing Amazon as a retailer, then you go to Shopify, or maybe you went to Kickstarter first, I'm not sure, tell me which way. But then after that you decide, you know what, I'm gonna have my own warehouse and I'm gonna have my own store. Like, how do you get to that point?
Angela Haas (27:43)
Okay.
Sacha Black (27:45)
Okay,
so Shopify came first actually yeah, it was Shopify first and so I went viral on December the 8th by December 13th I had Shopify live and basically I was like, I have a lot of traffic coming to me and I'm directing everybody to Amazon So I want to do that. So and in fact, I actually had Shopify up on the 10th. So it took me two days I had it up on the 10th, but it was like
Cassie Newell (27:49)
Okay.
All
Sacha Black (28:12)
properly, properly live. So I got some sales in on the 10th, 11th, 12th, but then I had all my products on by the 13th. And essentially it was a very quick decision, recognizing that I was generating a lot of traffic and I didn't want to just give all that traffic to Amazon. So I set up a minimum viable Shopify, literally did the best that I could. And then I just let it grow and grow and grow. So when I...
Angela Haas (28:15)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (28:41)
the Shopify it was connected to a printer that would that was essentially like an Amazon printer for me they would print all my books for me that continued for a year so it wasn't until December so that was December 23 by December 24 I'd made I was making 10 grand a month on my website so within it I went from zero to ten grand a month in a year yeah
Cassie Newell (29:02)
That's awesome.
Angela Haas (29:05)
Wow.
Sacha Black (29:09)
And once I hit five figures, was like, ⁓ that's quite a lot of money now coming in. And I was
like, maybe I can do more. I had a few issues. The complaint rate was rising just because of the volume that I was doing. Packages were ending up damaged on arrival. And I was not appreciating that customer experience. And I also realized that I wanted to encourage people to cover that.
Angela Haas (29:16)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (29:28)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (29:37)
and I wanted the flexibility to be able to put more in the boxes and potentially sign books. And that was mostly what people wanted when
Cassie Newell (29:42)
Mmm.
Sacha Black (29:46)
they came to me. They wanted sign books. I couldn't really do that in an easy mechanism. We were doing it, but it was very clunky. And that was thanks to the printer being really flexible and great to work with. But come January, I was like, no, I need to do something different. We were also running
Angela Haas (29:46)
Okay.
Sacha Black (30:05)
bigger Kickstarter. So the first Kickstarter had happened. So we launched Shopify in December 23. The first Kickstarter, I think, was February or March 24. The second Kickstarter
happened later that year, I want to say. And then the big Kickstarter this year was March. But so by January, I was like, no, I need to do something. I had started TikTok Shop and there were boxes everywhere. I like, there were
Angela Haas (30:33)
Yeah, that's so
fun.
Sacha Black (30:35)
It was
not good. It was like one week in the house and I was like, no, I'm done. this, I had to get out of my house. So I went and found a very cheap warehouse to rent. And to be honest with you, the investment was probably 20 grand. I probably dropped 20 grand on rent deposit, print run, cardboard, yeah, packaging.
Angela Haas (30:45)
yeah.
Cassie Newell (30:58)
especially on the print run.
Sacha Black (31:01)
All of this kind of stuff like racking,
Cassie Newell (31:03)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (31:04)
know, and all that the build costs the time cost. So we got it up and running within about a week. We had the deliveries on the 17th of February and by the 20th of February we were live. And I instantly went from 10 grand to 15 a month just because and I think that was purely down to the videos and the fact that I could show
Cassie Newell (31:12)
crazy.
Angela Haas (31:16)
Wow.
Cassie Newell (31:22)
Wow.
Sacha Black (31:30)
things in a more aesthetically pleasing way. And then I went from 15 to
28.
Cassie Newell (31:36)
Well, and also people are saying, I'm buying from you. It's very different.
Sacha Black (31:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and then we were able to do freebies. We were able to do little bits and bobs in there. Everything as a standard comes signed. So yeah, and then we had, I think, two or three months at 28,000 every single month. And then we sort of fluctuate now between 15 and kind of 30. But also, it enables me to do things like pre-orders. So we're approaching 1,000 pre-orders for architecting on my website.
Angela Haas (31:42)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (32:09)
So, I mean, it's just, I just can't. Like, yeah, it's absolutely nuts. But that means that we can give extras. So like, what keeps people coming back is that, you know, they're gonna get that book early. I can actually release it and ship it to them early. I will sign everything. They'll get bookmarks, they'll get character art cards, a sticker, and they're getting more. We're still in profit. Like, everybody's happy.
Angela Haas (32:09)
How?
Cassie Newell (32:12)
That's amazing.
Angela Haas (32:26)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (32:36)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (32:36)
Yeah, that
I mean that is one of the most important lessons to you is like making each purchase feel special.
that's what we do in our retail. It's the packaging and there's costs to that. But the packaging and the experience of what they get when they open the box and they feel like this person makes me feel like what I bought was special and that's huge that you're able to do that. But
Cassie Newell (33:01)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (33:06)
That's the, there's costs to that as well, but it's, still worth it because you know, person just getting a book in a box versus all the freebies, the bookmarks and everything is enhancing the whole purchase. That's a huge part of it. where do you print stuff like that? because again, like there's such a push not to use AI for anything for graphics or visuals or anything.
Sacha Black (33:22)
It's
Angela Haas (33:30)
you found a really cool illustrator. And I mean, even that work of finding people to do those kinds of things for you. Yeah, that seems daunting.
Cassie Newell (33:37)
the character art, mean?
Sacha Black (33:39)
Yeah, so we commission a
lot of artists and I say we, it's now the royal we, it's no longer me doing that. So I can't really take credit for it. Some of it has been people have done fan art and then I've gone, let's keep it in the community, commission them to do something else. Some of it has been research and I look at a lot of other people's, I look at a lot of other people's Kickstarter.
Angela Haas (34:00)
Okay.
Sacha Black (34:09)
⁓ And we look at who they're tagging as their artists. Book boxes, you look at who they're tagging. Obviously there's a real swing in price range. We also look at Fiverr. You do have to be careful on Fiverr to check their AI policy. But yeah, we work with a ton of artists. And honestly, it is literally the dog work of just searching. ⁓ But being clever about how you search. like Kickstarter's are always gonna have artists tagged.
Angela Haas (34:20)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Okay, that's a good idea. Yeah.
Sacha Black (34:38)
So that's a great place to start. Book boxes
always have artist tags. Other authors who are doing, creating character art, go and look at what they're posting and who they're using. Like that's the kind of thing that we do. Artwork is really expensive. So I always try to say that we need to be able to use it in at least three different ways because it is so, it's one of the biggest expenses that we have is other than obviously than printing the book, it is the artwork.
Angela Haas (34:53)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (35:08)
It isn't cheap. artists are incredible, but they are often a nightmare to work with. Of all of the people that we have worked with, artists are the biggest nightmare. You have to be really patient. You have to be very clear. And you need very long timelines to work with artists. It's probably the best advice I can give you. And just make sure that you get full costings.
Angela Haas (35:14)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
you
Sacha Black (35:34)
with commercial licenses pricing upfront so that you know exactly what you're paying for and how much it's going to cost and you know how many iterations. We had one artist who will remain nameless but basically they accepted the kind of description that we had given and then did not send us a sketch. They posted the artwork onto their
Cassie Newell (35:37)
Mm.
Angela Haas (36:04)
Thank you.
Sacha Black (36:05)
Instagram feed
without even sending it to us and I was like this isn't even right like this is very wrong and it's all finished and like you know so that was kind of we now insist on a sketch like if you don't have a sketch we're not going to work with you because we need to make sure that the physicians are right that you know but they are slowly but surely we are finding some really really good artists that we want to work with long term but yeah artists are really difficult.
Cassie Newell (36:26)
No.
Sacha Black (36:34)
find and to work
Cassie Newell (36:34)
We are.
Angela Haas (36:35)
that's really good advice because we want to work with artists because we don't want to use AI for those kinds of things. But just beware.
Just ask questions upfront, get things settled upfront. So, yeah.
Cassie Newell (36:49)
Yeah. What advice do you have for authors on choosing the right mix of products, for their platforms and brand? Like, I know for yours, I mean, because we're talking lesbian romance and fantasy, I was surprised in my first Kickstarter box. But I loved it because it was so fun. Well, it was a vibrator. And ⁓ of course.
Angela Haas (37:04)
You
There's surprises. Of course.
I hope my mother is not listening to this podcast. It's too early! I'm blushing because it's too early for me.
Sacha Black (37:20)
want to show you something. I want to show you something. Like, this is, like, you're to have to put explicit lyrics on this. I'm sorry. ⁓
Cassie Newell (37:31)
Angela, we're going to have to fuzz the screen.
Sacha Black (37:34)
It's happening, it's happening.
Cassie Newell (37:37)
You
Sacha Black (37:39)
Right, so I'm going to be really careful because obviously this might go... is this going go on YouTube? Okay, cool. So I'm going to be real careful with what I show you, but we now have Brandish...
Cassie Newell (37:43)
Yes.
Angela Haas (37:43)
Yes!
⁓
Cassie Newell (37:50)
I love it. I love it. I love it. But like when you think about I mean, just to get back to the product discussion, because yours is very branded. And I love that. And I'm here for it. Because I'm fine. I'm fine with it. I'm here for it. But my question is like, for example, you know, on the branding side of maybe an author who's more thriller genre or
Angela Haas (37:52)
That's amazing.
Sacha Black (37:52)
Toys!
Yeah, yeah.
Angela Haas (37:55)
I mean...
I love it. Bookmark vibrator.
Cassie Newell (38:20)
Fantasy, think you have a little bit more options. I feel like I have a ton of options being my little Southern self. But like, what, how do you make those decisions? Were you just like, okay, I'm leaning into the smut side of this and that fantasy element for my readers or?
Angela Haas (38:29)
you
Sacha Black (38:39)
So we've learned a few lessons, is what I would say. The spice stuff is not as popular as you would think. we were, yeah, so basically the first Kickstarter we lent into like the spicy bit. The second,
Cassie Newell (38:45)
Interesting.
Sacha Black (38:53)
so that just had like one little toy. The second Kickstarter we did like a spice box. And then the third Kickstarter, which was girl games, we went away from that. So this is for the girl games, but that's the only spicy thing. And the rest,
Cassie Newell (38:59)
Right.
Angela Haas (38:59)
Okay.
Cassie Newell (39:07)
Right.
Sacha Black (39:08)
we basically had bookish merch. We sold a lot more bookish merch boxes than we did spicy boxes, which we found really interesting. And then we have kind of spoken to some other authors and they've also found the same thing.
So there is a small niche. It's not that we sold none. We did. And actually lots of people added on the branded adult toys. So there is an audience for it, but actually bookish people want bookish merch. Yeah.
Angela Haas (39:30)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (39:35)
bookish things.
Yeah.
Sacha Black (39:37)
So
then it was a matter of, okay, well, what are the most popular bits of bookish merch? Normally it's things like, well, we did some research and we had a look at what other creators were doing, but mugs are almost always super popular, tote bags, super popular. Then there were certain things that we wanted to do that were part of the world because that makes the reading an experience, not just book mail.
Cassie Newell (39:54)
Sure.
Mmm.
Sacha Black (40:05)
So for example, we, oh, do I have one here? It's the coin, yeah. So we have a yes-no coin that we had designed. Is it here? Let me just check. So basically in book one, Scarlet has a coin that is a yes-no coin. Hang on, I'm gonna have take my headphone off, one second. And she basically uses it to decide.
Cassie Newell (40:05)
Yeah.
the coin. Yeah.
Angela Haas (40:14)
⁓
Sacha Black (40:34)
whether or not she's going to off someone and also uses it. Yeah, and uses it to make
Angela Haas (40:37)
That was brilliant. Yeah, everyone. She's, yeah, she's not a baker. She's an assassin. There's, it's strategic.
Cassie Newell (40:39)
She is an assassin.
Sacha Black (40:45)
Yeah and she uses it
to make other decisions as well like you know is she gonna approach the girl that she fancies or you know whatever and of course wait I've got it I think I've got it no I haven't got it
it's like this kind of thing. it's pretty... Anyway, I'm just gonna keep talking and hopefully find it. And we had it designed and it was the most popular item added on, which really surprised me. Yeah. But it's part of the story, you know? So I guess there are those elements that make people feel like they're part of the world. But you have to make the...
Angela Haas (41:03)
Hmm ⁓
Cassie Newell (41:11)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (41:11)
Isn't
that amazing? It's genius. It's absolutely genius.
Cassie Newell (41:14)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Haas (41:18)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (41:27)
strategic choice to write those in.
Cassie Newell (41:29)
Did you strategically write that in as you were writing it? You were like, yeah, I could have a coin. Yeah.
Angela Haas (41:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (41:35)
Well, kinda, yeah, because I found
this coin online and that's where the idea came from. So I ordered this for myself and was like, I would love, love to have a real one, but didn't think I would ever have the ability or capacity to do that. So I wrote this in essentially. And then when obviously we realized that we were going to have like the, the capital to do it, I was like, right, fuck it, we're doing it. Let's have it designed.
Cassie Newell (41:53)
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (42:03)
So yeah, we designed it ourselves and put it in.
Cassie Newell (42:03)
⁓ I need to do that
better. Like I think of products in all honesty, for ⁓ Sweetheart, Scones and Stories that series, I actually developed a tea for the series. And I have it and it's delicious and it has little sugar hearts. It's very cutesy cutesy, very peach woodgrove. And I've actually developed the teas for the next two series. And I'm like, you know what?
Angela Haas (42:17)
Yeah, that's great. I loved that.
Cassie Newell (42:31)
My bakery should serve this tea and I should write it in. What am I doing?
Sacha Black (42:34)
Yeah, it should. Yeah, it
Angela Haas (42:34)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (42:36)
should.
Angela Haas (42:36)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (42:37)
The other thing that you can do is insert phrases. like, there are key phrases that become like catch phrases. So like, for example, I Know a Girl is Sterling's phrase, or Hello, My Angry Girl We now have in stickers, we've got it on hoodies. And you know, so like, if you if you can recognize that you're or give your characters a thing, a phrase, a statement, a belief.
Cassie Newell (42:46)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sacha Black (43:04)
and weave that in, you can then put that on all your products. So like, I have got the Angry Girl mug here, but it's in the kitchen, but like that's kind of like become a bit of a thing. And then of course, as you grow a readership, it moves towards becoming a fandom and then they want identity. So one of my readers asked me what the fandom was called and I was like, do I have a fandom? Like, I don't know.
Cassie Newell (43:15)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (43:30)
Yes, and
it's very important. You have to name it!
Sacha Black (43:34)
Well, they came
up with the name. And so I put it on my stories and I was like, look, you we've got this name. Can anyone think of anything else? But like, we all agreed that it was the best name. So it's the Romantics. So R-O-E, Mantix, like the Roemantix And so of course, that's now our next thing that we're going to do. Right? So we're going to have it on t-shirts and hoodies and, know, so now we just refer to them as the Romantics. ⁓
Cassie Newell (43:37)
I love that.
I love that.
one of
the advices we got from an earlier, I think it might have been Amy, interview guest that we had and she indicated you really need to ask your audience in your newsletter about things and have them, you know, be involved and named. And I've got an ALC and advanced listening group because I'm doing all audio books right now. And yeah, they named themselves the Southern Bells. I was like,
Angela Haas (44:14)
Yeah.
That's cute. That's really cute. So, yeah. Wow. So if I, if like in my newest romance, Roxanne calls Duke Cowboy Ken, do I make
Cassie Newell (44:28)
awesome. I love it. You know, but it's, it's, it's fun when you're when you have that participation and people are naming things. I love it. Yeah, I love
Sacha Black (44:38)
Absolutely. And that's how
the rebel also came about because I didn't choose that name. Somebody else chose it. Icy Centric chose it. Yeah. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (44:44)
Really?
That's awesome.
Angela Haas (44:55)
a Ken doll? Yeah, no, yeah. Well, and I, I purposely, well, yes, because I purposely said it in Colorado, because all we do is sell Colorado souvenirs. I have
Cassie Newell (44:56)
my god, or at least clothes I want that Elvis outfit. ⁓ Angela Sorry, hopefully that's not a spoiler.
Sacha Black (45:01)
Yeah, all those little stickers, you know? Like,
I would want the stickers, start with the stickers.
Cassie Newell (45:08)
Gosh, a bookmark, one of those magnet bookmarks that folds over Angela.
Angela Haas (45:23)
Already in my store printed Colorado things and I have all the vendors who can make Firebird Ranch merch or whatever So I did do that one thing right, but I was like, okay I'm gonna write some Colorado ones because I already have all the merchandise You know, I already have all the vendors who can print anything I need for them, you know, so that that was that's gonna be easier once that book comes out so but
Cassie Newell (45:28)
Yeah.
Bye
Yeah, that's smart.
Angela Haas (45:51)
That is part of growing your business, Is thinking even if you're not there yet for listeners who are like, I've only written two books. Should I be thinking about merchandise? But I would say, I mean, I don't know. I don't want people to get discouraged like, well, I'm not there yet. But I still think you should because you may want to write something into a future story that you can use later. Right? Okay. Yeah.
Sacha Black (46:16)
I think you should think about it differently. Think about it
in terms of belonging, right? Like, what can your readers belong to? And because belonging, like if you think about, I need to think of different example, the Zodiac Academy and like the houses or the different Zodiac signs, like readers can belong to that, right? Or like different houses in a dark academia, right? I belong to this house or that house.
Angela Haas (46:26)
Right. Yeah, that's good.
Cassie Newell (46:27)
Interesting.
Angela Haas (46:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Cassie Newell (46:45)
right.
Sacha Black (46:46)
So you can think about it in terms of that because readers will belong to a part of your story and then whatever they belong to becomes the merge.
Angela Haas (46:56)
Right, yep. that's a great, that's something tangible because I think that's what started to overwhelm me was I was wanting to get ahead of myself, you know, and like, ⁓ I should plan this for this. And I did that with the sci fi like starting to plan like merchandise and you know, and I'm like, you know what, I'm not even
Cassie Newell (46:57)
I love that.
Angela Haas (47:17)
finishing that series right now, but it is still something to keep in the back of your mind. I still like what can they belong to as you are creating the universe, whether you're in your first book or your 20th book, you know, that's part of creating this whole world for your readers. So yeah, so true.
Cassie Newell (47:31)
Mm-hmm.
So true, so true.
I have a bonus question to ask. Since, no, no, I'll prepare you. ⁓ I'm just wondering, I mean, do you consider yourself more of an author entrepreneur at this point, Sacha? And I'm kind of wondering, did you ever have those discussions with yourself? Because we've had discussions about, you know,
Angela Haas (47:43)
Is it spicy? ⁓ my god. Will you get so spicy?
Cassie Newell (48:05)
people saying, I'm a writer until I publish, then I'm an author, which I think is crazy. ⁓ But a lot of people will say, I'm an author or I'm an author entrepreneur. And I find that really interesting, that dichotomy. How do you describe yourself?
Sacha Black (48:22)
suggested that I was a digital commerce author because I have my own website and kind of warehouse which I thought was a really interesting prospect. I have always seen myself as an entrepreneur, always. I love business, like I love it. I love marketing, I love selling.
Cassie Newell (48:27)
Mmm.
Angela Haas (48:28)
Any.
Cassie Newell (48:34)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (48:40)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (48:51)
and love writing. So I am really lucky that I love all of those things because I think it is the perfect trifecta for being an author entrepreneur. So yeah, I definitely think I am an entrepreneur as well as an author. I always say I'm an author first. That is the first thing. If people ask me what my job is, I say I'm an author. Because that is my job, because there is no entrepreneur without the books. Like without the books, there's no product. Right.
Angela Haas (48:54)
Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (49:10)
Right.
Angela Haas (49:17)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (49:17)
Yeah, without
that product.
Sacha Black (49:19)
So I am
an author first. And funny enough, like the bigger my team has become, the more I'm stepping back to just doing the writing. And so, yeah, I'm almost more of an author now than I've ever been, if that makes sense, even though I'm running a bigger ⁓ business. Yeah.
Angela Haas (49:27)
That's amazing. That's the goal.
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (49:39)
great.
Angela Haas (49:39)
And I think that starts with a coach asked me during my first book, because I was like, you know, I was really just stitching a story together. And I was like, I really want this in there. And she was like, that's really not how you stitch a story together. And I was like, why? You know, I really was just writing.
And she asked me, is this a hobby or do you want to make money? And I was like, well, I want to make money. I'm not doing this for my health. I love writing, but I love selling too. I'm a salesperson. I'm a buyer, a salesperson. I love merchandising. I love all of it. That's been my background. So I want to just take all that and put it into my author business.
Sacha Black (50:05)
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (50:22)
Right.
Angela Haas (50:25)
And she was like, okay, well then you need to follow some rules and rules as far as we know that we, like you said in the beginning, Sacha, we want to write what we want, but we also need to manage some reader expectations. can't just go off the rails and write, you know, this romance that doesn't fit into any genre or doesn't follow any tropes. mean, there are some readers that like, if you're writing enemies to lovers, here's some basics. So.
Once I answered that question, I went full throttle into, nope, this is my career. It's not a hobby. And that's like the first question I think you need to answer, you know?
Cassie Newell (51:04)
Yeah.
Sacha Black (51:06)
Yeah
and I think that there's a lot of hard truths in the answers so like writing, the act of writing, the act is about you the creator. If you want to sell then it's not about you, it is about the reader and unfortunately in order to sell you have to deliver what readers want which means you have to write what readers want otherwise they're not going to buy it.
Angela Haas (51:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Cassie Newell (51:23)
Hmm.
Right.
Sacha Black (51:36)
Right? So this is where writers, newer writers get really uppity because what they want is they want to be able to write their obscure story about Frogspawn and be able to sell a million copies. Right? But that's not how it works. Like James Dyson didn't make a Hoover that he wanted. He made a Hoover that was functional for millions of customers.
Angela Haas (51:36)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Sacha Black (52:02)
If you want to sell, if your goal is to live off your writing, then you have to find a group of readers that either want your frog spawn story or you have to be precious about the act of writing, but not the content that you're writing. And that's the hard truth of it, right? Like, unless you can find a genre that you are passionate about that readers also want.
Angela Haas (52:02)
Mm-hmm
Cassie Newell (52:21)
Right.
Sacha Black (52:31)
That obviously is the holy grail and that's what we all, that's what I wish for every writer that they find that because like that's what I'm doing but that isn't possible for everybody because not everybody likes what is selling.
Angela Haas (52:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (52:42)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (52:48)
Mm hmm. Exactly. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (52:51)
That's
Sacha Black (52:51)
But
there are also, but here's the other thing, right? Like you don't have to be in the top 100 to be making a buttload of money. I make more money on my website than I do on Amazon. So, you know, you don't have to be in the top 100, the top 500 to be making a very healthy living. Even on Amazon, I make over 10 grand a month on Amazon and my books are nowhere near the top anything. Not even the top five, not even the top 10,000. I'm still making 10 grand a month. Over 10 grand
Cassie Newell (52:51)
so good.
Angela Haas (53:00)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (53:08)
Right.
Right.
Sacha Black (53:20)
So don't let what seems like you have to do, it's not always such, it's not, there is a lot of smoke and mirror is.
Cassie Newell (53:21)
Yeah.
Angela Haas (53:30)
Yeah. ⁓
Cassie Newell (53:31)
That's really great advice. It's been hard for me because I'm, I've gone into short stories and I'm loving it, but I'm not necessarily following the path of what I was taught ⁓ the summer before. And I'm kind of breaking out into my own little road, which is very creative, Cassie, but I also see a missing side of that market.
So I'm trying to go for that. And
I recognize that that's what you did. You saw a piece missing in the market because I think sometimes too, there's this creative side of us that is like, yeah, I want to write the obscure thing, but how do I make it fit the market? And that's really tough versus really looking and studying the market too. I think that's really important.
Angela Haas (54:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cassie Newell (54:24)
So.
Angela Haas (54:25)
All good stuff. I'm making more selling in our stores than I on Amazon. My paperbacks, I'm stocking every week, but I'm hitting the tourist season too. And I've got a store in Scottsdale that's selling and so I'm actually doing better in those in-person sales. ⁓
Cassie Newell (54:31)
So there's another hard truth, right? I mean, so Sacha, yeah.
Sacha Black (54:50)
people
do, there are lots of authors making really good money at conventions. So and that's why I say like there is no there is no one way like you could make a living doing in-person events. Whether or not you could make half a million a year on in-person events I'm not sure and that's why I come back to what is your goal? Do you want to make 50 grand a year? Would you be happy at 50 grand? Would you be happy at 100 grand? Those are different things.
Angela Haas (54:54)
Yeah.
Right. Totally. No.
Sacha Black (55:18)
They're different models. If you want a million, you need staff.
Angela Haas (55:22)
Yes, yes, now I think I'll adjust. I think 50 grand is okay or 10. ⁓
Cassie Newell (55:23)
Yeah.
And I'm like, no, I want to go to 200,000.
I want that so bad. But at the same time, I'm fearful to go outside of Amazon right now because my current goal is to build because I'm zero. So I'm going to stay that plane right now and then dream for 2026. But I do think Amazon does serve its purpose for
Angela Haas (55:35)
Well, sometimes...
Yeah.
Cassie Newell (55:58)
unknowns and starting outs. do. Yeah.
Sacha Black (56:00)
I used KU for two years, I used KU and then I came out in January. So yeah, I think it makes a big difference.
Angela Haas (56:03)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Now we have one last task.
Cassie Newell (56:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. We're at the...
Yeah, and we didn't, I didn't prep her for this. So at the end of our podcast, we do a thing called Table Topics. And it's just to get to know you very random. So fun.
Angela Haas (56:20)
you
So hot seat question, it's out
of this bin, it's an actual game. ⁓ This is actually very fitting for our conversation, but ⁓ my answer is gonna be the most boring. Okay, what's a taboo you haven't tried but are curious about?
Cassie Newell (56:44)
Boo.
I don't define taboo. Wait a minute.
Angela Haas (56:47)
Something that society thinks is taboo.
Sacha Black (56:51)
I I'm like taboo, I live taboo.
Angela Haas (56:54)
Right, it's
everyday Sacha.
Cassie Newell (56:55)
I think my answer is gonna
be boring too. I don't know.
Angela Haas (57:00)
Oh, I thought we were gonna get some spicy reactions out of this crowd. I don't, I am the most vanilla person you know. don't, I, right, I think that's where she's struggling. I have not tried any taboos, nor do I know what they are, but she's like, which one do I choose? I wonder.
Cassie Newell (57:03)
Well, what's your taboo, Angela? You answer first.
Sacha Black (57:14)
haven't tried.
Cassie Newell (57:16)
my god.
Angela Haas (57:26)
it's like would you eat bugs for what are some taboos let me look it up here
Sacha Black (57:36)
been to Torture Gardens which is like a festival for like BDSM. I totally want to go to that. That's what I would want to do.
Angela Haas (57:40)
Okay, yes.
gosh, according to... Okay.
Cassie Newell (57:44)
You would want to go to one and check it out. Well, if we're
Sacha Black (57:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cassie Newell (57:49)
going in that realm, I've never been to a sex club. I think it might be interesting.
Sacha Black (57:50)
you
Yeah, you should go.
Angela Haas (57:56)
Here's ready for the Google list of taboos. ⁓ Anything from wearing shoes indoors, asking a lady's age, to beastiality No, I'm not. I think...
Cassie Newell (58:08)
god, that's quite the range. No, that's not there. But I do love to dip my French
Sacha Black (58:11)
not tried that, do not want to try that.
Cassie Newell (58:16)
fries in mayonnaise and a lot of people don't like that.
Angela Haas (58:18)
Okay,
that is a taboo thing. Do you like mayonnaise on your grilled cheese? The answer is no. ⁓ That's a thing. Mayonnaise with grilled cheese. Or jalapeno peanut butter sandwiches, which I know someone who eats those and they shall remain nameless. No, gross, ew. Anyway, I think that's a good way to end. ⁓ I think I'd go with...
Cassie Newell (58:23)
No, not on grilled cheese.
Is it you?
Alright!
Sacha Black (58:43)
You haven't given
us a taboo!
Angela Haas (58:49)
Well, I probably like eating bugs. I know lots of civilizations and cultures in the world do, but that's taboo for me. I'll try it. Sure, if there was nothing else on the menu, I'd try it. Yeah. Okay. See, we're all learning.
Cassie Newell (58:57)
Grasshoppers dipped in chocolate? Would you do it?
I love it.
All right. All right. Well, thank you for joining us
today, Sacha. I really appreciate you being here. This is so fun. ⁓ Don't forget to give us a review for our listeners or those that are watching reviews and ratings wherever you listen on the podcast. It really helps with visibility. Next week, Angela will be leading an episode on how to grow your business with personal sales. And until then, keep writing, keep doing. Thank you so much.
Sacha Black (59:15)
Thank you for having me.
Angela Haas (59:18)
This was fun, so fun.
Cassie Newell (59:39)
Bye.