Episode 11: Mastering Social Media Marketing with Guest Jenn DePaula

Cassie Newell (00:01.117)
Welcome, welcome, welcome. Well, let me start that over because that was horrible. Welcome. I'm Cassie Newell. I'm here with my co-host Angela Haas. And this month, it's all about marketing. This is episode 11. And this episode, we're talking about social media marketing with Jenn DePaula. Jenn, welcome to the podcast.

Angela Haas (00:03.438)
Okay.

Angela Haas (00:28.018)
Yay.

Jenn DePaula (00:28.415)
Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.

Cassie Newell (00:31.021)
I'm so excited. Let me do a little intro about Jenn. Jenn Hanson-DePaula is a marketing and social media expert who's been working with authors and musicians and other creatives for over 25 years. Jenn got her start in the music industry working for Essential Records in 2000, serving as the label publicist and overseeing the marketing and publicity for over 20 bands and musicians. In 2001, she was asked to join EMI.

CMG to serve as label publicist and oversaw the marketing and publicity for more than 35 bands and musicians. For five years, she helped musicians take their career to new heights and actually has a platinum record to prove it. I love that. In 2005, she ventured out on her own, started Bookend Media, which was formed to serve the independent music and author communities.

Angela Haas (01:05.134)
that's so cringy.

Jenn DePaula (01:13.635)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (01:24.509)
As the music and publishing landscapes changed and social media outlets became more and more prominent, she refocused the company and naming it Mix Use Media. In 2010, she decided to concentrate on authors and book publishing to help her clients form a deeper and more powerful online presence. She's worked with a wide range of authors from New York Times bestselling authors to self-published authors starting from scratch.

In 2024, she decided to re-band dropping the name Mixed Use Media to be her own name, Jenn DePaula. Jenn, yay!

Angela Haas (01:59.194)
Welcome. Wow.

Jenn DePaula (01:59.737)
Woo, thank you. I feel like a grandma. when I was like back in, back in one, when we got social media, you know, it's just like, yeah, I worked before we had social media. It's nuts. It is.

Cassie Newell (02:04.764)
What?

Angela Haas (02:04.91)
This is Such a different world. mean, yeah.

Cassie Newell (02:10.549)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (02:15.194)
Yeah. It's...

Yeah, so just to kick things off, what is one major myth about authors using social media for marketing that you encounter frequently and why do you think it still persists?

Jenn DePaula (02:24.056)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (02:35.441)
I love this question. And so many come to mind, but like the number one being that the follower count impacts your sales, which it doesn't. We've gotten so hung up on the number of followers. And I see so many authors being really

Cassie Newell (02:46.069)
Mm.

Angela Haas (02:48.677)
Yeah.

I'm done.

Jenn DePaula (03:00.225)
discouraged and brought down by, you know, like when publishers or agents say, you have to have, I had someone email me just this week saying an agent told me I'd have 30,000 followers on Instagram before they would even talk to me. I was like, no, this is, I don't know why they keep saying this because the follower count is not an indicator of sales. It's not an indicator of success. we've, um, we just become

Cassie Newell (03:05.267)
Mm.

Jenn DePaula (03:28.819)
very focused in thinking that that is the indicator for sales, that that's an indicator that you are in touch with your ideal audience. It's kind of like, so Cassie, if I were to say, I'm going to give you a million dollars, I'm going to deposit it right into your bank account. But the kicker is you can't touch that million dollars. have, but exactly.

Cassie Newell (03:44.757)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (03:52.969)
Well, why put it my bank account?

Angela Haas (03:53.39)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (03:56.437)
That's the thing like even though like if you don't have access and you can't spend it It's kind of like the same thing and so when we focus mostly on collecting a bunch of people but not really Focusing on okay. How are these people my people? Are they interested in what? my book is about is This something that they are actively searching for

Cassie Newell (04:01.887)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (04:25.995)
So when we focus more on just accumulating a bunch of people rather than curating a community of people that you know are your ideal readers, or that are interested in what it is that you're selling or promoting, it's gonna fall on deaf ears. So that is probably the biggest frustration and feeling like you have to rush to get this huge amount. I've worked with author, like,

Cassie Newell (04:50.569)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (04:54.777)
one author I worked with, had less than, I think she had less than 800 followers on Instagram. And so we really started just nurturing these connections. We looked at other ways that she can connect with them. And so she started doing podcast interviews, like being a guest on podcasts. Between that and really focusing in on

Angela Haas (05:18.382)
Hmm.

Jenn DePaula (05:20.351)
nurturing her connections, her sales started to grow and grow and grow. And so it's not the number, it's the quality of the connections that is really the thing to focus on.

Cassie Newell (05:33.621)
Yeah, do you think that I feel, because I had to start over from zero with a new pen name, I feel like social media for a lot of new authors, they think it's a get quick community buying aspect. I think that's also a misnomer too, because I also think sometimes you're

Jenn DePaula (05:38.681)
Mmm.

Angela Haas (05:47.918)
.

Jenn DePaula (05:52.568)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (05:56.301)
Yes.

Cassie Newell (06:01.161)
better strategy might be around advertisement, around marketing. Do you feel that way that there's a disconnect between social media and marketing from an advertising perspective?

Jenn DePaula (06:04.953)
Mmm.

Jenn DePaula (06:16.025)
So we're always looking for that easy button, right? We're always looking for that, that quick fix. And there is no quick fix. There is no silver bullet. And when we are constantly chasing that silver bullet or that one thing that we can focus on, we're missing what's really going to be the kicker in turning things around.

Cassie Newell (06:20.127)
Right.

Angela Haas (06:20.158)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (06:25.801)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (06:46.083)
And that's your messaging, what it is that you're actually communicating, what it is about your book that is going to be of interest to your ideal readers. What is it about your book that will make readers want to actually pay attention and to actively read it? The thing, like if we are just to focus on the outlet,

Angela Haas (06:46.478)
Okay.

Jenn DePaula (07:11.929)
or the medium that we're trying to connect with our readers, that's not going to be that linchpin. The linchpin really is what it is that we are selling. What are the topics? What's the messaging that we are connecting with readers on? And when we give readers the what and the why, that is what is going to really turn things around for them.

It's like when you have the what and the why in your social media posts, that's going to hook them. If you have the what and the why inside your, in your ads, that's going to hook them as well. So it's really when we, when we focus on the delivery system, it's kind of like if Angela, like if you said, I want some juice, the important thing is the juice.

Angela Haas (08:02.31)
Right. Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (08:05.379)
But if I were to figure, like just be kind of stressing out, does she want it in a juice glass? Does she want it in a coffee cup? Does she want it in a champagne flute? The delivery system, it doesn't matter. The juice is what's important. So when we focus on the messaging and what it is that we're communicating about our book is the juice. That's what the readers want. People are going to find your book on any social media platform through any...

Angela Haas (08:18.811)
Great.

Cassie Newell (08:31.572)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (08:34.359)
you know, through ads, through a substack, through whatever it is, we need to focus on that communication, that messaging first, so that whatever outlet we're on, that delivery system, it's going to work anywhere. And that really is a skill. That's one of those when I am really focusing in on helping an author

nail in their messaging and that like what it is that they're going to communicate to their ideal readers. It's not sexy. That's not the thing that people like look at to say, that's what I need to do. But it's like when I don't know about you guys, like, but when I was growing up, when I was 14, I could not wait to get my driver's permit. I was so excited. I was in a small town. And so it was like, okay, got to get that.

Angela Haas (09:07.742)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (09:10.442)
Right.

Angela Haas (09:15.15)
Yeah. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Right.

Jenn DePaula (09:29.599)
gotta get that driver permit. But when I finally got it, I realized I hate driving. I hate it. Like I did not, I wanted to do anything else but drive. But anytime we got into that car, my dad would hand me the keys and he would say, okay, you're gonna drive. And I hated it. And finally, one day I said, I don't want to drive. Can you please just drive? And he said, I want you to be ready anytime we are, you're in this car when you turn 16.

Angela Haas (09:44.974)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (09:58.231)
that you will have the skills to drive. I'm not gonna be with you all the time. You need to learn these skills. And so it's not something when you turn 16, you're automatically gonna know how to drive on the interstate or in the rain or any of those situations. You need to develop the skill. So of course I had to practice. I had to learn that skill. I know that marketing and selling your book and social media is not something that you wanna do.

It is not, it is the last thing that you want to do. But what I want to empower authors with and what I want to teach them are the skills that they need. So anytime that they are in on social media or they're doing a podcast interview or they decide to do ads that they are empowered with the skills of what it is that they can, what, how to communicate effectively with their readers, how to

Cassie Newell (10:27.061)
you

Angela Haas (10:27.486)
No.

Jenn DePaula (10:54.937)
turn those readers into actual book buyers because just posting on social media isn't going to convert. That's the conversion, how you're going to turn them into actually going and purchasing your book. That is the key. The number of social media followers isn't going to do that.

Angela Haas (11:00.618)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (11:14.034)
So I have a question about that all sounds amazing. What if it's a barrier with mindset? And what have you noticed working with people? I mean, in our first episode, I mentioned I did a survey where I kind of authors across different platforms. I mean, 75 people responded. That's not a huge chunk, but 89 % of those.

Jenn DePaula (11:22.869)
Mmm.

Jenn DePaula (11:40.259)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (11:43.03)
marketing was the thing they hate the most about this whole part of your career. And I was like, why is it? I know what it is for me, but why do you think that mindset piece? I mean, I almost know what to do, but I hate doing it. And that's the shift for me. like, I just want to, my inner 12 year old is like, I just want to write whatever I'm a creator, you know, like my creative juices marketing is such a downer.

Jenn DePaula (11:45.123)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (11:58.264)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (12:04.107)
Yes. Yes.

Jenn DePaula (12:10.931)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Angela Haas (12:11.854)
Gen X. So that's how I talk when I'm like 12 year old. But you know what I'm saying? Like, how do I that's my biggest problem is shifting that mindset to like, finding some joy in it, which I don't.

Jenn DePaula (12:25.411)
Yeah. So I think it's a couple of things. First, I think that we have been fed so much bad marketing that that's what we think that we that's what it is. And we've seen so much. We have this idea that marketing is like a used car salesman or the bro marketing was like, bye bye, you know, and it's it's it's not that and that is especially in today's day and age.

Cassie Newell (12:49.365)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (12:49.424)
Right. Hate that.

Jenn DePaula (12:55.801)
people are very turned off by that. No one likes to be marketed to, no one likes to be told what to buy. But if you've ever like walked into a coffee shop and saw someone reading a book that you absolutely loved, you almost immediately fall in love with it, not romantically, but you just, they're going to get to this part and they're going to love it. And like you just, you have this bond with them. And so when we can remove the idea that we are

Angela Haas (13:09.802)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenn DePaula (13:25.549)
forcing our book on someone that doesn't want it, they're not who you're talking to. You're talking to people who are actively seeking books like yours. Like they are hunting for it. And if you've ever just been looking for a book or for a product or a service where they, you know, like

Angela Haas (13:29.166)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (13:53.433)
It's it seems like it was made for you. You're like, yes, whatever it is. I will buy it Those are the people that you're talking to and that's what with good with the marketing skills that I was talking about earlier it's really about when we talk about finding your ideal reader, that's who you're talking to and When you can get out of your mind of thinking, okay I'm talking to ten thousand people and when you're just talking to this one person it

Angela Haas (14:00.966)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (14:21.017)
it takes practice again. It's not something that instantly happens. when you practice talking to them and removing everyone else, it makes the process easier. So my ideal customer, her name is Rebecca. I know that she lives in Atlanta. She has three kids. She's married to Brian. has like, and I know all of these details about her. Whenever I go to post on social media, I'm thinking, will Rebecca find this helpful? Will she find this funny?

Angela Haas (14:40.322)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (14:51.127)
will she find this interesting or, know, and I'm only thinking of her when I post, I'm not thinking of Dave, who's going to, you know, like just be picking apart every thing that I'm doing wrong with my life. You know, I'm not talking to him. So I think that that's one of the first things. And then kind of also realizing that sale, like marketing and sales are

Angela Haas (14:58.338)
Right. Right.

Jenn DePaula (15:19.433)
of like twins that you can't tell apart. They're similar, but they're very different. And sales comes later once people realize, Angela has the book that I like, she is writing everything that I've ever wanted to read, you know, and they just kind they, they see, and they will very happily lay down their money. You're not asking them

to give you money, you're providing them with something that they want and that they are actively looking for. So it's really, it's not, we tend to always look at the negative side, like the negative comes up first, but half the time those negative things aren't even relevant. So really kind of adjusting your mindset in that framework.

Angela Haas (15:55.453)
Yeah, that's a great, yeah.

you

Cassie Newell (16:04.596)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (16:15.853)
just to think about, okay, I'm not talking to everyone. I'm not a bro marketer. I'm not a used car salesman. I'm talking to the people who want to hear from me. And that is something that not only makes it, I won't say easier, but it just kind of removes that icky feeling that you were talking about.

Cassie Newell (16:23.135)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (16:27.393)
Right. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (16:41.843)
Yeah, I love that concept. know, Jenn and I go a little further back for a couple years. But as writers, write your ideal character who's buying your book, because it will it will change your mindset. It really will. It'll help quite a bit. And as you're testing that character, you can tweak it along the way, too. I find it really helpful.

Angela Haas (16:49.39)
Okay.

Jenn DePaula (16:55.149)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jenn DePaula (17:06.701)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Cassie Newell (17:10.931)
I think that's such a great little nugget. I'm curious for those that are in their sophomore, junior year of being an author, several books under their belt, and they're like, I'm just pinning it, trodging along. I've been investing. I've been doing all the things. What advice would you have for them to one up their game in marketing?

Jenn DePaula (17:20.345)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (17:31.757)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (17:37.985)
okay, Cassie, you're not going to look at this because we were just talking about all of the things that you're you're doing. And this is, this is a, this is something that, especially for authors who feel like they're drowning in tasks in doing all the things. So I was just talking, she's a dear friend who her name is,

Angela Haas (17:39.764)
Uh-oh.

Cassie Newell (17:54.355)
Hmm. Yeah.

Angela Haas (17:54.542)
I've heard. Yes. Yeah. I've seen some of that. Hello.

Jenn DePaula (18:05.817)
Jennae Cecelia and she's a poet. I don't know if you heard that the there was this trend going around. I took my self out, my younger self out for coffee. I don't. Yes. Okay. So that's her poem. She, she wrote, it's part of her book. for like, she, she shares, she's been sharing a poem every single day for nine years on social media. And she has like, I think 13 or 14 books out.

Cassie Newell (18:16.807)
yeah.

Cassie Newell (18:29.791)
Wow.

Angela Haas (18:30.118)
you

Jenn DePaula (18:34.009)
and she just got signed to a traditional publishing house. I mean, she's able to call the shots because I mean, the girl knows her audience. she's dialed in, but she, um, she was in that same slump where she had, you know, like all of these books under her belt, but she needed to step it up. And she was like trying to do all of these different things.

Cassie Newell (18:43.263)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (19:02.263)
And when we looked at what she was doing, it was like she just kept adding more to the plate. Like, I should do this. I should do. I want I want to do this and this and this. But she didn't have really the the infrastructure in place and that foundation. She like when we kind of looked at it and I asked her, OK, what do you what do you want to do? Like, what brings you joy? And she was like, I would love to because she's also an artist. I would love to sell prints of my poems.

Cassie Newell (19:08.381)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (19:31.91)
Mm.

Jenn DePaula (19:32.321)
I would love to sell, you know, like other merch. would love to, you know, and she had all these different things, but she didn't even have like a website in order. She didn't have a newsletter going. She didn't have like, and she just kept, you know, like doing all of these little things. And so we doubled down. We said, we said, okay, you're on Instagram. You like, she focused.

Cassie Newell (19:32.543)
Hmm.

Angela Haas (19:50.35)
Okay.

Jenn DePaula (20:01.643)
on Instagram. And she made that like she did kind of the thing where she she focused on Instagram, and then she repurposed it like on tik tok and stuff like that. So it was just kind of Instagram was her main focus. And then we had her Okay, now you have got to start building that list. She has I know it's well over 170,000 followers on Instagram. And she didn't have a list. Yeah. And so but she and so I was like,

Cassie Newell (20:02.677)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (20:20.59)
Whoa.

Cassie Newell (20:28.319)
singing.

Jenn DePaula (20:30.413)
We got to get a freebie in there and we're going to start setting up this newsletter. And when she got serious and she made this her business, like she went all in and she looked at it more as a business because it is a business. And she focused on Instagram. She was turning those, those, followers into, subscribers, driving them to her newsletter.

Cassie Newell (20:32.157)
Yep.

Cassie Newell (20:45.492)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (20:50.646)
That's it.

Cassie Newell (20:57.535)
fans.

Jenn DePaula (21:00.181)
And she just repeated and it was just, built this system and she came over for dinner just this past Saturday and she told me that like we, when we, we did that about a year and a half ago, she said, you have helped me earn over $50,000 just with this one, just this system. The key to it, what I would tell authors is to simplify and repeat.

Cassie Newell (21:02.037)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (21:17.589)
Peace.

Angela Haas (21:18.649)
Amazing.

Cassie Newell (21:23.167)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (21:26.933)
And really when we think, I have to go to the next level. think, I have to double, have to multiply by doing a million different things. No, the key is repetition within marketing. People need to see a minimum of eight and have a minimum of eight impressions in order for them to take action. And so this repetition of like consistently showing up on your social media or outlet of choice and driving them to your newsletter.

Cassie Newell (21:32.212)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (21:56.291)
driving them to that website and bringing them back. And you know, like it's just a simple system. But when you repeat that and when you really, again, we, were talking right before it came on, it's the long game. It's focusing on, it's not just focusing on the next three months, focusing on that long game. You create a system and a process that not only is easy for your readers to follow, because if you're confused, your readers are going to be confused.

Angela Haas (22:02.078)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (22:24.879)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (22:24.939)
If you're overwhelmed, your readers are going to be overwhelmed. So thinking about just keeping it as simple, simplifying really is the key to help you take it to the next level. And you have a lot of data. You have more data. You aren't just kind of guessing like with your first book. So, you know, okay, I'm spending all this time making TikToks, but I'm seeing more people come from Instagram. So, you know, I'm going to focus on Instagram. can repurpose it to TikTok.

Cassie Newell (22:37.524)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (22:40.948)
Right.

Angela Haas (22:48.398)
yeah. Right. Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (22:52.259)
but I'm gonna focus on Instagram or maybe it's threads. see a lot of people having, but it's really thinking, the thing that I always tell authors is you have to show up where you enjoy showing up. If you hate, I've had others tell me I would rather eat glass than do a TikTok, like to do a video. I'm like, fine, we don't have to do TikTok. If what,

Cassie Newell (23:06.633)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (23:18.049)
What sparks your happiness and many of them say writing, you know, like, okay, then let's start a blog or start on sub stack and do threads. That's that's a great, you know, way and you know, like they were like, yeah, that was that would work. Or, you know, there was another an author he was he was an older gentleman. And he did not want to get on on social media. And but he said I he had this historical

Angela Haas (23:30.979)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (23:32.402)
You

Angela Haas (23:35.922)
right.

Jenn DePaula (23:46.937)
historical fiction and he wanted to, you know, start promoting it. And I was like, well, where are you located? He was located in St. Louis. Okay, let's look at some of the local organizations, the meetups, the historical societies, the, you know, see what, you know, groups your library has. He did that. And he was everywhere. Like he just started, you know, like making these points of impact that might seem small. They're not, they don't have the scope of what social media has.

but it got people interested and getting them reading his book. And then it just kind of, you know, balloons out from there. that's the big, like giving authors, you know, like it's not adding more to your plate. It's more about, okay, what is working? Let's shush aside what isn't working. Yes. And really focus in on a few things and do them really, really well.

Cassie Newell (24:22.004)
Right.

Angela Haas (24:26.254)
No, I don't. I know. It's spurts.

Cassie Newell (24:44.209)
Angela, do you think you focus on a few things? Yeah. It's really hard, right? Like we're both going, I feel like the pot calling the kettle black on either side of Jenn here, but.

Angela Haas (24:55.884)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (24:59.691)
I'm always seeing some shiny new object and then I kind of burn myself out, you know, like, but I mean, I had a question though, before I kind of forget to circle back to that concept of it takes eight impressions for someone to take action And this was always my question because the way social media changes,

Jenn DePaula (25:05.047)
Yeah. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (25:06.173)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (25:26.048)
almost daily, feel like the rules change or the algorithms change. So as I say this, you when I first learned to do social media for our own businesses, it was more about variety because I was always taught that and we're dealing more with like a brick and mortar store with like products, but you know, it was one part the products, one part your community and the other part, like in Colorado.

Jenn DePaula (25:28.441)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (25:55.138)
Sometimes my landscape photos got the most interactions, but then that sent people to our website and to our store and that had nothing to do with the products we sell. But it was the variety that kept people engaged. But now the rule, sometimes I'm like, even when it's people I love, I see their same video over and over again.

Jenn DePaula (26:17.315)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (26:18.134)
I'm like, I've already seen this. I know it's not for me because I'm already dialed in. buy everything, know, buy everything Cassie puts out. That's a given. But is that just to train the algorithm? are different people seeing it at different times and only I'm seeing it over and over. I thought that that got people to unlike you when they see the same thing, but that's not necessarily true, is it?

Jenn DePaula (26:23.449)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (26:43.235)
So it again, when we focus on the trend or the type of post, and when we circle everything or when we center everything around the type of post within our marketing, we're working for the algorithm. I don't want you to work for the algorithm. I want the algorithm to work for you.

Angela Haas (26:58.862)
Okay. Right.

Cassie Newell (27:06.613)
the other way around.

Jenn DePaula (27:11.011)
This is again, where it comes back to the, to the messaging, to the content. When you know this is, this is what I, how I want to connect with readers. This is how, what I, I want readers to know about my book. This is what my hook is. And that is the center of your marketing. You can then use that, that, that will be able to tell you, okay, this will work for that trend or

this will work for this type of post. Instead of you working for the algorithm, it's turning, it's really turning it around and going, how can the algorithm work for me? So how do you do that? The first thing I would focus on three different types of content on social media, and this is across the board. There's a connection post. The connection post is really about how you can connect with your readers as a human being.

Angela Haas (28:08.546)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (28:09.367)
So this is like sharing something inspirational. This is sharing some encouragement. This is sharing your latest book haul. This is, it's more about how you want to connect with connect with people. And this type of post, it might feel like, okay, this has nothing to do with my book, but it really does because you're connecting with people that you know have similar interests.

Angela Haas (28:13.806)
Mm hmm.

Jenn DePaula (28:39.349)
And so that is the type of post that's going to help you grow and get in front of new people. So then now that we have that kind of post and we're growing, then we need to talk about our book or what it is that we are promoting. And when we talk again about the messaging, so for example, the way that I like to do this type of post is focus more on the long form content. So,

this podcast is a perfect example. So you have the topic of this podcast where it's how, like let's call it how authors can connect with readers. Like let's say that's what the podcast is. You can take that long-form piece of content and really break it down into even smaller pieces of content. So you could take like the section where we talked about how do you...

Cassie's first question of like what is a myth that you see that we need to debunk? That could be a post. You could have like a pull quote or something like that. You could take this segment and that could be another post and you could really pull multiple pieces of content from this one long form piece of content. And let's say this is about your book.

Angela Haas (29:48.474)
Gotcha.

Jenn DePaula (30:06.549)
if you have a new book that's coming out that is like a rom-com like with what Cassie's writing, if there's a like if she's going to do like a podcast episode or if she's going to be writing a blog post or something that's longer than what would be written like in an Instagram caption or if it's longer, you know, form a video, she could break that down into smaller pieces.

Angela Haas (30:30.854)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (30:35.341)
you don't have to give everything away within the promotional posts or talking about the book. You just talk about one simple element because again, when we try to overwhelm and know, share too much about the book, it's just kind of like, it just kind of goes, you know, like people kind of stop paying attention. So when you just talk about that one little thing that really kind of hooks them in and draws them in. So we're talking about the book and then it's kind of that nurturing, asking questions, getting feedback and

Angela Haas (30:35.63)
Sure, yeah.

Jenn DePaula (31:04.099)
really engaging with people. And that engagement helps show, you know, let's say it's Instagram, people are interested in what she's saying. They're taking part in the comments or they're sharing what it is that she's sharing. And so all three of these different types of posts all work together. They kind of daisy chain, you know, together.

Cassie Newell (31:14.581)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (31:20.277)
Right.

Cassie Newell (31:29.044)
Right.

Jenn DePaula (31:31.959)
when authors say, I only get engagement or I only get likes when I share, you know, like the connection posts. Yeah, that's, that is going to be the popular one, but you have to talk about your book as well. You have to talk about what it is that you're promoting. And that is where, people realize, Angela has a book. Awesome. Where can I go get it? And it's funny because I will share something

Angela Haas (31:43.246)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (31:55.978)
All

Jenn DePaula (31:59.671)
like seven times and people are like, you have a podcast? Yes, I've been saying this for three years, you know, and it's, again, people don't see it all the time. So it's not, it's something where if you're kind of using these three different types of posts consistently, you're having those impressions and you're going to be showing up, you know, like in,

Angela Haas (32:00.526)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (32:03.412)
Right?

Jenn DePaula (32:26.219)
in different ways that people will see because not everyone sees your posts all at the same time. And it's not something where it's that deep to people. So if I think, I posted this three months ago, no one's going to know, you know, and it's something to where like, I'll have, like I'll take a Tik Tok that I've done where it's like a talking head where I'm speaking to the camera.

Angela Haas (32:44.213)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (32:44.468)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (32:54.411)
And I will break that down, that same exact topic and the same exact points and turn it into a carousel. And then I'll turn it into a story, an Instagram story. And then, you know what? I can expand on that and turn it into a blog post. You can use that one topic and use it in multiple ways. So again, it's not that you have to show the same picture with the same text over and over again, or the same real

with the same thing over and over again. It's presenting it in a different way, but using that same messaging and that same way that you communicate consistently that shows those added impressions.

Cassie Newell (33:37.587)
one thing you said that I really loved was you work the algorithm. Don't let the algorithm work you. I mean, that is just mind blowing gold. I learned recently when I went to superstars and I took a course that was offered there about reposting. And one of the things that just blew my mind was look at the data. And if it's going to higher non followers,

Jenn DePaula (33:41.976)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (33:44.926)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (33:54.958)
you

Cassie Newell (34:07.189)
repost it because then it gets to the next group of non-followers and the next group. So Angela's seeing the same video like four times because she's my friend and she watches my videos. But that has grown me exponentially in 30 days. I went from like 300 to I'm almost at 600 in one social media platform.

Jenn DePaula (34:08.002)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (34:24.281)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (34:29.207)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (34:33.481)
Does it do the same thing in all platforms? Not necessarily because I'm not seeing that a majority are non-followers, but I also am seeing an increase in consistency rate in growing. So if you aren't consistent in posting, I do think you tend to be more static than if you are consistently posting. And when I say consistently, it doesn't have to be three times a day, although for TikTok,

Jenn DePaula (34:47.498)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jenn DePaula (35:01.891)
Mm-mm.

Cassie Newell (35:03.357)
it works really well, but I'm also reposting a lot of things that are non follower oriented. But in Instagram, that's not something I do all the time because I just don't feel it really makes that big of a difference. But I also feel that social media is one of those things that we get hung up in, as you said at the very beginning, that it doesn't equal sales.

Angela Haas (35:24.414)
You

Jenn DePaula (35:31.833)
Exactly.

Cassie Newell (35:32.797)
So it's like, how much time do you want to put into those things when you realize that it really doesn't always equate to sales? So you have to have a goal metric around this. And I know Jenn and I have talked about goal metrics in just our private one-on-ones. Could you talk about that just a little bit, goal metrics for authors? Because I think sometimes they hear the messages. You must be here. You must be here.

Jenn DePaula (35:37.165)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (35:59.491)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (36:01.449)
but it's like a landmine, you know?

Jenn DePaula (36:04.853)
Yes. And so whenever I tell authors, you know, in order to make a plan, you have to have a goal and thinking like, you would never get into your car and say, I'm going to go on a road trip from Maine to California without a plan. No, like without a map, you wouldn't do that. And you wouldn't just say, I'm going to California because

going from Maine to San Francisco is completely different than from Maine to San Diego. So it's very different. And so when we say, you like, what are your goals? There are some authors who have said, know, like, if I could sell a thousand books, it would be a dream come true. And some, that is just a drop in the bucket. And so our goals,

help us determine a what six like if we're succeeding and if we're moving in the right direction. It also helps us to see progress or where we might need to make some adjustments. And it helps us to actually focus because actually you were talking about the shiny object syndrome. It helps you to go okay, if someone asked me to come and speak at some event.

Angela Haas (37:08.974)
Yeah. All right.

Jenn DePaula (37:28.493)
but it doesn't help. Like it's not reaching people that I want to reach. I can go, you know what, that's going to deter me too much. So I'm going to say no to that. So I can focus on what is going to help me reach my goals. And especially when it comes to social media, we can think, this, these posts aren't getting a lot of likes or, know, this isn't getting enough, you know, enough comments.

Angela Haas (37:39.438)
.

Jenn DePaula (37:57.699)
But then you go on the backend and you go, wait, I'm getting in front of more non-followers or people are actually clicking the link in my bio or, know, you can see so much. So when we just kind of assume or just kind of look at it from, you know, like post to post to post as, know, like the metric that we're following, that's not, it's not giving us the whole picture.

So when it comes to actually seeing progress and to actually feel like we're moving forward and that we're accomplishing something, having a goal and then actually measuring it is, it will not only help you to feel better about like what you're doing, it will also help you to kind of go, okay.

Angela Haas (38:46.945)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (38:51.789)
Why was I, why am I wasting time with this? I'm going to stop doing this and I'm going to go this way. I just did that a couple months ago. I stopped seeing engagement on my reels. I was like, okay, I'm going to try that. So I started doing carousels and who they went, you know, like it was just kind of like all of it. And I know things change and all of that, but that again, because I know my messaging and I know what it is that I want to say, I can easily go, okay, reels.

Cassie Newell (38:55.635)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (39:08.014)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (39:10.282)
Hmm.

Jenn DePaula (39:20.173)
don't work for me anymore. Let's do this." And it's easy to adjust. And so that's something like I'm a big fan on. There's the whole SMART goals. I can't remember what it stands for, but it's like, if you're going to say, want to sell, you never would say, I want to sell more books. You would say, okay, I want to sell a thousand books in the next three months.

Angela Haas (39:38.894)
Right, yeah.

Cassie Newell (39:46.751)
Yeah, specific.

Jenn DePaula (39:48.939)
So I know I'm gonna have to sell 36 books per day and at least 250 books per week in order to reach that goal. So it gives you something to work within and it gives you kind of that perspective of, gosh, know, okay, 33 books per day. Okay, I got it. And so, you know, it just kind of gives you those parameters to work within.

Cassie Newell (40:13.759)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (40:15.732)
my gosh. So good. So much information, but yeah.

Jenn DePaula (40:20.511)
That's a lot.

Cassie Newell (40:21.705)
Right? So you still hating marketing, Angela?

Jenn DePaula (40:26.839)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (40:26.862)
Well, you know, I just love, I'm just an in-person salesperson. That is my background. I have 20 years in-person sales. I'd much rather go to a conference and try to sell my book because for me, those, I don't want to say tactics because I don't, I always train my salespeople not to be car salesmen, not to stalk people and to build trust. And it's kind of the same kind of concept. I guess you're building trust in the brand.

Cassie Newell (40:35.017)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (40:36.163)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (40:52.792)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (40:57.314)
that even if you're getting some likes down the road, they may be like, you know what? Yeah, I need a new book. I'm going to check out Angela's. it's just transferring what I know about being an in-person salesperson to online. I just need to get better about, I don't really like being in videos, but I haven't really been trying. So maybe that's a new thing for me that I might kind of get excited about, but maybe like...

Also mentioning what I'm reading this month. Sharing a typo, that's funny. Quote, know, something like that. I just need to get into more of a rhythm with it, yeah.

Jenn DePaula (41:37.891)
But even, even so, so when we talk about like the marketing funnel or the marketing system at the very top is how you're building awareness, how you're connecting with people. excuse me, I always say, you know, like have a minimum of one, but no more than three outlets. So one, one of them could be, and I do encourage authors to have at least one social media, even if you aren't like,

Angela Haas (41:59.066)
Right. Sure, yeah.

Jenn DePaula (42:07.093)
overly active on it. So let's say you're on Instagram and if you enjoy doing that one-on-one, that face-to-face engagement, start looking at like even... Okay, so you mentioned I worked in the music industry before and so like when I did, it was called Tour Press. When an artist would go on tour, I would go and look at the town that they were going to. So let's say it's Chicago. I would look at

Angela Haas (42:15.682)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (42:35.369)
and like within an hour driving radius of Chicago. And I would look at, where are the, this was back when we had like record stores and radio stations, where are different clubs that they could go and meet the vendors. And so I've looked at all of these different outlets within an hour driving radius, because there is a,

Angela Haas (42:44.71)
Yes.

Okay.

Jenn DePaula (43:02.829)
just a fountain of connections that you can make within that hour radius. And once we really, like once we really just saturated that area that I would move out another hour and then another hour. And so this is something where even within your community, within, you like your, your town or, know, like within an hour driving radius, looking at the different bookstores, looking at the different libraries and different

writing meetups or the reading meetups. There are so many different, like I'm in Minneapolis and they are having all of these different book fairs because people are wanting that in-person experience. And so just looking to see what opportunities there are in your community where you can go and meet readers and have that face-to-face. And even though, you know, it might be

Angela Haas (43:45.774)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (43:46.505)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (44:01.581)
smaller group of people now it can always grow from there and those people Know other people and they're gonna share your book this is where the beauty of word-of-mouth comes in and you are just kind of slowly building this powerful army of people who are just avid Angela fans and they're just going you've got to read this and so that is Definitely something that you can use as that awareness building

Angela Haas (44:15.822)
Heh.

Jenn DePaula (44:30.923)
element at the top of your funnel and then you always drive them to your newsletter to stay in touch because you want to keep that connection there. Send them to your website and then prompt them for a purchase. So it's something that you can just filter through over and over again.

Cassie Newell (44:48.305)
over and over again. I love it. I feel like we've answered a majority of my questions. Angela, is there any other questions that you have?

Angela Haas (44:58.455)
No, that was great. That's a lot. I'm actually, you've helped me get a little bit more excited about trying some new stuff, which is like, that's huge. Cassie knows.

Jenn DePaula (45:06.882)
Good.

Cassie Newell (45:07.272)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (45:11.629)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (45:12.885)
Well, I have to I have to plug Jenn, because she does have a circle group. And I love going to it. She has office hours and all these other other aspects. I'm sure we'll have your links and everything. But every time I leave a circle meeting, I'm like, yes, ready to go every time. I think there is something to it, though, like we get together as a community, as authors, and we're talking craft.

Jenn DePaula (45:28.078)
Yes.

Jenn DePaula (45:31.681)
Yes, it was.

Angela Haas (45:34.306)
Thu!

Jenn DePaula (45:38.509)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (45:41.333)
we're talking, you know, books and all this. And it's different with marketing. Everybody just goes, you know, you never like get excited about it. And when I went to this class at superstars, Zach Diamante, because I have to do it like that. He pumped me up about TikTok, because I was just like, dang, this is a trudge to start all over again.

Jenn DePaula (45:48.46)
Yes.

Jenn DePaula (45:57.369)
Thanks.

Angela Haas (45:57.695)
Yeah. yeah.

Cassie Newell (46:06.567)
And then I was like, no, I know what to do now. He's got me going, you know? And I'm just like, and I'm doing it in the time spaces that work for me. And I'm also doing the, it doesn't have to be perfect kind of thing. Cause that I think early on too, when you first get on camera face, you're kind of like, you're trying to look your best and all that. Not that I'm not trying to look my best.

Jenn DePaula (46:10.732)
Yes.

Jenn DePaula (46:16.515)
Yes.

Angela Haas (46:19.55)
.

Jenn DePaula (46:20.205)
No.

Cassie Newell (46:35.337)
But some days are not makeup days. And yes, all women know this. And some days are higher filter days, kind of thing. So those kind of things you try to get through, but it's difficult. But I do think talking about marketing does pump you up. I think we should do it more often.

Jenn DePaula (46:37.468)
yeah. Yes.

Angela Haas (46:54.586)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (46:55.231)
absolutely. And the thing that I learned very early on, specifically working with authors, coming from the music industry, musicians knew, okay, I need to go out and perform. I need to get out there and be more visible for people to listen to my music and for me to actually make a living. And my sweet authors just wanna hide in their...

Angela Haas (47:12.75)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (47:13.365)
Mm.

Jenn DePaula (47:24.641)
in their office and just type. Exactly, exactly. And that was something that was so eye-opening to me of like, okay, authors need this. need to know, like they need to be empowered, but they also need to know that they are not alone in these struggles. And so many authors sit there and they look at these huge accounts that have hundreds of thousands of followers, they're selling books and they think, I'm a failure. It's like,

Cassie Newell (47:24.745)
We just want to throw the book at the retailer.

Angela Haas (47:42.126)
Yeah, yeah.

Cassie Newell (47:42.207)
Yes.

Jenn DePaula (47:54.795)
Okay, no, you're not for one into this person has seven books out, you know, it this is a they've been working at you're looking at the leaves of the tree, you're not looking at the roots that are deep into the ground. And so it I think having that community and having that back and forth of like, man, I struggled with that, too. And you know, here's what I did. Or, you know, I'm right in the trenches with you, you know.

Cassie Newell (48:07.089)
I love that.

Angela Haas (48:10.158)
I guess the last question to touch on that then. So for listeners, where can they...

Jenn DePaula (48:21.823)
I completely understand. makes you, it just, that community and that camaraderie is very, important.

Cassie Newell (48:21.897)
Right.

Angela Haas (48:37.678)
You have a circle group maybe just a couple sentences about that just to tell people and then but you also do take on you have individual coaching a little bit

Jenn DePaula (48:48.287)
do. And it's funny because I have not even marketed my services just because they've been booked out for like the last six months. So it's something where I always I have several products, digital products that people can purchase. But what I always encourage authors to do is to join the author circle. That's our membership. And the author circle is really to help empower authors to know

Angela Haas (48:56.664)
Sure, yeah.

Jenn DePaula (49:16.057)
how to connect with their readers and how to actually, how to get on podcasts, how to get reviews, how to grow on Instagram, how to, it's all of the things at that top of the funnel, how to connect with your readers. And so that is one of the best places for people to get started. And I also have a bunch of free resources. One is the book marketing blueprint.

which is all on jenndepaula.com. And it just really outlines everything just to kind of give you that simplified structure that you need to get started.

Angela Haas (49:43.735)
Yes. Okay. All right. Well, we'll put all that the author circle in the show notes. Okay. All right. Now time for table topics. This is really where it gets spicy. All right. Okay. We've got it. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (49:53.46)
Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (49:56.601)
Mm-hmm.

Cassie Newell (49:59.679)
Let's.

Jenn DePaula (50:00.821)
Ooh, yes.

I love it.

Angela Haas (50:11.68)
No cheating on this. When did you get into the most trouble as a teenager?

Jenn DePaula (50:18.541)
Cassie, what is this?

Jenn DePaula (50:23.481)
Are you gonna share yours?

Angela Haas (50:24.258)
You better go first this time. Yeah.

Cassie Newell (50:26.805)
Okay, well, I don't know that I got in the most trouble, but I felt awful about it after I did it. So, this does one in high school. Sometimes girls can be catty and awful. And this one female had done something awful to me and it was kind of haunting me.

Angela Haas (50:46.35)
Cassie Newell (50:54.651)
and I was really irritated about it. And I had a really good friend that worked at a farm and a farm supply. He was like, you know, you don't have to do anything awful to their vehicle like they did to you. But skunk urine on tires is really hard to get out.

Angela Haas (51:00.142)
Cassie Newell (51:21.641)
So, I might have done that.

Jenn DePaula (51:24.994)
What?

Angela Haas (51:25.23)
I haven't, okay, I guess we don't have time to fully understand how you acquired skunk urine but that's just really the missing piece for me.

Jenn DePaula (51:30.977)
It's skunk urine.

Cassie Newell (51:31.177)
He's, they sell it. They sell it at farm supply. Yes, they do. You use it for different reasons.

Angela Haas (51:36.321)
Of course we do.

Jenn DePaula (51:36.473)
Angela Haas (51:40.611)
Okay.

Cassie Newell (51:41.247)
I used it on tires.

Angela Haas (51:43.118)
I'm picturing, you're like hoarding, like herding skunks and like in gear or something. Like, I don't know what I was thinking. Okay.

Jenn DePaula (51:46.009)
There you go.

Cassie Newell (51:50.045)
because you're creative. Yeah, I wasn't in a hazmat suit, but I was wearing gloves and clothes I didn't like.

Jenn DePaula (51:56.793)
man. wow.

Cassie Newell (52:01.565)
and out of there. So it felt really good.

Angela Haas (52:01.624)
Well.

Jenn DePaula (52:07.06)
Man, that.

Cassie Newell (52:08.649)
probably the worst awful thing I've ever done.

Jenn DePaula (52:13.071)
man.

Cassie Newell (52:14.537)
Next!

Jenn DePaula (52:16.651)
Did you want to go, Angela? yeah. wasn't really like, I was the first born, you know, rule follower. Yes. but there were there were two. actually this was my freshman year of college. There was this guy who was I had my small group of friends and we would we just we I mean, we were so boring. We

Angela Haas (52:18.474)
no, mine's boring. You go.

Angela Haas (52:44.91)
That's wild!

Jenn DePaula (52:45.305)
crocheting together. know, didn't just like, just, we got together and watched, I know, I know we were really, but we were very creative in wanting to like in pranks and you know, like kind of pulling pranks on, on other people. And there was this guy who was several years older than us, but he was just really nasty. And we, he had done something to a friend of mine. So we were like, we need to do something. And this is car related as well.

Cassie Newell (52:52.628)
Rebel.

Cassie Newell (52:56.789)
Mm-hmm.

Jenn DePaula (53:15.673)
I, so we decided to do something to his car. And so what I like, some of them had, you know, like put, you know, a shaving cream, you know, like on windshields and, know, like all this other stuff. But what I did was, I'm sorry if there are any male listeners, but I took tampons and I, I took them out of the applicator and I, I tied them to his windshield wipers. And when you tuck them under,

Angela Haas (53:28.36)
Right.

Angela Haas (53:36.714)
Jenn DePaula (53:45.433)
they're hidden. So when it started to rain, like, so okay, but he got everything else off of the car. Like he came out and like ran after us and because we were in the middle of this, I got those, you know, on there. He even called the cops on us and we were written up in the newspaper like that there was, you know, vandalism on this car. But the funny part was, the day that it was raining, I was like, I wonder if James

Angela Haas (54:01.189)
I'm alright.

Cassie Newell (54:05.261)
my gosh.

Jenn DePaula (54:12.665)
you like is out in his car or something like that. And sure enough, like a friend of mine happened to be driving past his car and he hadn't seen the tampons like shoved underneath the his windshield wipers. And when he was it was raining, he had these bloated tampons that were going back and forth on his windshield wipers. Don't know. No, no, no. You can't tuck them under anymore. Like this was back in, you know, like the mid 90s. So they were kind of it was a kind of a boat of a car.

Angela Haas (54:28.849)
Oh my god, that's the best. Don't try that at home, everyone.

No, I'm sure. Yeah, this was yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Jenn DePaula (54:40.813)
So yeah, you can't really hide them under there now, but that was really funny. But yeah, we got, we did get written up in the newspaper and the cops were called on us. So, but that's not really, that's like the worst thing I ever did. I was a part of a crocheting club. know, like that's not, I was a musician. You're like, not, not at all.

Cassie Newell (54:50.035)
Wow, you rebel.

Angela Haas (54:50.7)
Wow, that's amazing.

Angela Haas (54:55.214)
Yeah. Yeah. When you're raised by Italian Catholic parents, you don't really and I was the first born and so there's just like, the time I did get in trouble was, I mean, I'm from Green Mountain Falls, Colorado. That's like, people claim that they've seen Bigfoot in the mountains. That's how remote this is. Okay. There was no like,

Cassie Newell (55:01.738)
Yeah.

Angela Haas (55:23.822)
streetlights, it's dirt roads in the mountains, you know, but there was a 7-Eleven that the bus would drop us off and we'd walk up these hills to our house. And so was like, I was more like 13. My friend and I would like get a bunch of Twinkies, like the biggest junk food, because I never had junk food in my house. It was like from scratch, everything. So like getting a Twinkie was like the greatest event on earth.

Jenn DePaula (55:42.489)
Mm-hmm.

Angela Haas (55:48.942)
So there was this house where you could hop onto the roof from the road because it was tucked. You know, things are kind of built weird in the mountains and it was a summer home only. So in the winter, my friend and I would climb on the roof and we'd eat Twinkies and just leave the wrappers everywhere. So these people called someone because they noticed like all these wrappers are like in the yard and like, what's going on?

So this man was waiting for us and caught us, and then was like grilling us. And then he was like, what's your names? And at the time my maiden name is Guido. And I was like, Angie Guido. And my friend hits me in the arm. She goes, never tell them your real name. You amateur. Like, I was just like, great. I was grounded. So like something like that wasn't that big of a deal. I don't know why we thought, well,

Jenn DePaula (56:20.602)
Jenn DePaula (56:34.552)
I'm

Cassie Newell (56:34.965)
You

Angela Haas (56:44.512)
not throw our wrappers away, we'll just leave them in the environment. I don't know. You know, so we just had to clean it up. But like that was the biggest thing that comes to mind. Really boring. But I couldn't really get in trouble. I mean, my mom, we had the fanny whacker. OK. We it was called and labeled and marketed as a fanny whacker. Look it up. It exists. Yeah.

Jenn DePaula (56:45.411)
Yeah. Yes.

Cassie Newell (56:56.885)
I got in trouble all the time.

Jenn DePaula (57:00.081)
Jenn DePaula (57:05.847)
I'm whackered.

Cassie Newell (57:09.158)
my gosh, my gosh.

Jenn DePaula (57:10.989)
think anyone like I'm a fellow gen X or like anyone it's like yeah it was a different era

Angela Haas (57:14.154)
Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Lots of discipline. So.

Cassie Newell (57:20.501)
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of discipline. It was funny. My mom got, I got to a certain age and it was like, do you want to spanking or whipping from your dad or to be grounded? The difference between me and my sister is surmountable because me with my very flat butt would be like, grounding 24 seven. I'm happy to be home. My sister was like, let's get it over with.

Jenn DePaula (57:22.135)
Yes.

Jenn DePaula (57:37.847)
You

Jenn DePaula (57:44.193)
Yes.

Jenn DePaula (57:49.133)
Wow. Yes.

Cassie Newell (57:49.769)
I got stuff to do. So different, so different between us. anyway, well, this was perfect. Thank you so much for coming on. I feel like we have to have you back because there's so much wisdom in marketing. And it's one of those things that just it's always evolving, always evolving.

Angela Haas (57:52.4)
That's funny. It's neat alternative.

Jenn DePaula (57:55.257)
gosh.

Yes, thank you. Yes. Oh, I would love it.

Angela Haas (57:59.266)
So fun. Thank you.

Angela Haas (58:04.974)
Oh yeah, so much.

Jenn DePaula (58:07.595)
I love it.

Jenn DePaula (58:12.353)
Absolutely. Well, there's no cookie cutter marketing. It's individual for each author. it can, there are many different ways that we can go about it. So absolutely.

Angela Haas (58:13.986)
Yeah.

Cassie Newell (58:26.577)
I love it. All right, well, thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to give us a review and rating wherever you listen to the podcast. It really helps us out with visibility. Next week, we're talking about marketing and how to make things simple. All right, thank you so much. Keep writing, keep doing.

Angela Haas (58:50.614)
you